Does anyone actually think Socialism will work and thrive in America? Sure it's nice in the beginning but it always leads to ruin.
'Democratic' Socialism
- Thread starter ThatNehlenFeelin
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It begins in ruin in the West. The West values multiculturalism which is at odds with socialism.
Which would make it at odds with Bernie(who has courted 'multicultural voting blocs') ..Wolf in Sheeps Clothing?
If a majority of the country wants it to work it will work. Several countries in Europe disprove your second statement.
We cannot continue to be who we are, the greatest country the world has ever seen, if we go socialistic. You cannot provide cradle to grave benefits, think Greece or f/rance, and provide for your own protection let alone be the worlds policeman.
I lived in Europe. I don't know what kind of eutopia you think it is but the middle class was every bit as disgruntled there as here. Everyone wants to point the Scandinavian countries, but those are much smaller, nearly entirely homogeneous nations.
For god's sake, Bernie doesn't want to turn America into a European country with his "Democratic Socialism". You people need to quit misrepresenting by these stupid comparisons using incorrect hypotheticals. But I've been saying that since 2001 when I joined the OT board so I'm guessing it won't ever happen.
It's been part of our government for decades. You think it's just now "arriving"? Come on. Some of the great nations of the world are going more socialist. Folks, socialism is NOT COMMUNISM! Get a grip.
I've been all over Europe and didn't see what you saw. I saw a middle class that loved their health care system and loved the fact that their children could go to college without huge debt. They really emphasize education and most children speak at least two languages. Their main complaint was without gun ownership, there are a lot of break ins and thefts.
Eutopia? I saw what you did there. And I never said it was a utopia, I said socialism does not "always lead to ruin" as the OP said. Big difference. Nor do I see what population size or heterogenous vs homogenous has to do with it. The countries where socialism works - and it's not just Europe, look at Canada and New Zealand as well, for example - it works because the government and the people are committed to making it work. Whether the USA ever becomes a social democracy remains to be seen, and if it does happen I don't expect it to be in my lifetime unless I live to be really old.
Yeah, I don't know where in Europe you toured but that certainly wasn't my experience.
In a heterogeneous society you have many competing interests and competing cultures. Socialism requires a certain level of homogenization. Very difficult on a country of 320,000 people without force.
If we hadn't gone over there and freed them, there would be no break ins, the Nazi's would have taken anything worth stealing. They can't and won't defend themselves when big, bad brother, US of America, is there and we rely on capitalism because socialism is a disease that causes apathy. We should start pulling out some of our troops and telling them, France, etc, to man up.
It only works if you have a friend like the U S that defends your right to stay free. You can't do that in socialism because you run out of money paying for everything under the sun but self defense.
You really should brush up on your military history. Ever heard of the Allied Forces? And contrary to your narrow minded, ill informed, preconceived notions that are biased against left leaning countries, like France, they are actually fighting with the US in Afghanistan (and did in Iraq) and have provided tremendous help in the global war on terror.
And you could go to the southern coalfields in WV, or the inner city anywhere, and see the horrors of our current system. So, what's your point? Only "bad" places exist in socialist nations?
What is our current debt now? How are we curving it currently? Yeah, we aren't. So if you're going to spend, might as well spend big.
Another thing you don't see in Europe is the extremely impoverished lower class - things like you see in Appalachia - like when you are in a rural area and see a single wide trailer and you look and say "Holy ****" and ask yourself "does someone actually live there?"
Taking tax money and using it to fix infrastructure, provide health care to the needy, and fund public services.
Incredibly radical plan ... no way that will ever work. When has that ever been tried? Except for the decades we've already been doing it, I mean.
Forgot the insane amount of new taxes for all the free stuff. No incentive to succeed
You sure about that? What is this "free stuff" you're talking about and how is it fundamentally different than what we have today? How did you get to work today? I assume you drove on public roads? How did you get your education? I assume you went to public schools? Ever seen the monuments in DC? Ever needed police? Ever been to a state or national park or forest? Know anybody that is getting social security or using Medicaid?
There have been large periods of time where the top tax brackets were much higher, seems like there was still a lot of success.
Even if Bernie is elected and can somehow implement ALL of his plans, we are still going to have a capitalistic economy. Only the socialist services that we already have will be expanded a bit.
I'm not advocating his plan ... but let's at least be honest about what it is.
So nobody works and people in Europe and Canada and New Zealand just lay around waiting for government checks to roll in? If nobody works, who pays the taxes to support their socialist system? You need to get out of the holler and get a look at the world.
Of course taxes would have to go up, which is why I've repeatedly stated that I don't expect America to become a social democracy anytime soon - we the people aren't ready for that kind of a tax bill, and I'm not sure we ever will be. But that's not anywhere near the same as saying it couldn't work because of population size or heterogeneity.
Lol. That's because poor people in Europe don't own property. They have squatters rights. And they have projects that look every bit as impoverished as any inner city in the US.
Driving through the Czech country side reminded me of driving through Western PA, Northern WV. Rolling hills... trees.... grass fields.... dumpy as homes.
1. Hitler wasn't a Socialist.
2. Bernie doesn't want to take away anything from anybody.
3. No one is proposing doing away with capitalism - people can enjoy the fruits of their labor.
I often have discussions with some of my friends and they get all pissed off about how hard they work and the people "free loading off the system". They usually shut up when I ask them if they want to trade places with anyone we know receiving food stamps or welfare.
Hitler was a socialist--a national socialist. Why would anyone want to trade the place of wealth one has created for one's self for a place poverty? What is that challenge supposed to prove?
Better question: do the people on welfare or food stamps want the rest of us to stop working?
Lolol Hitler was a big time socialist. Bernie's economic plan of breaking up the banks? Hitlers.
Oh please. Hitler was a FASCIST who belonged to a party that CLAIMED to be "socialist". How do you gain support of the people? Yeah, that's how. But to call him a true "socialist" is irresponsible on your part.
I think the point is the "incentive to work and succeed is gone" argument people make when talking about socialism. Or that people on government assistance are living a great life, high on the hog, on the backs of the working class.
Bernie's plans aren't really THAT different than what we have today, and there certainly isn't anything in there that would obviously be a disincentive to anybody to try to succeed. That's an argument that I just don't get.
Let's say somebody makes $50k in a 20% tax bracket, does anybody really think they won't try to get to $100k even if that's at a 30% tax bracket? One you clear $40k, the other you clear $70k ... I don't see how the incentive is gone.
1. France was occupied, maybe you know that many of the French participated with the Germans, great history.
2. We are talking about now. France sent a few soldiers to fight. They refused to defend themselves like they should. They barely can send out one carrier that they have and it sits in doc most of the time.
3. The reason all those countries can survive socialism is they have us to defend them against enemies to the east. They are bankrupt now, and they spend very little in self defense.
4. Maybe they need to start the war on terror in the Islamic slums that they created under socialism that leaves the immigrants at 35% unemployed. You really should know your present history and not think of France as still under Napolean leadership.