Civil War memorial or something else...

[rog1187]

The Confederate flag is being flown at the SC Civil War memorial on State grounds...similar memorials are located in National Parks...is the difference that one is an actual flag and the other is a bronze replica? Or is there something in the intent?

 

[RichardPeterJohnson]

SC's issue is rooted in their intent of thumbing their noses at forced integration in the early 60s. They started flying the stars and bars then over the capitol. 15 years ago, a compromise was reached that removed it from the capitol but kept it on the capitol grounds. If I was a black person, that would irritate me in a major way. As to the national park memorials, admittedly, I don't know much about whether flags are flown. what type, etc. Personally, I don't think we should honor the confederacy in any way, shape or form. They were traitors. Plain and simple. In the aftermath of the Civil War, too much effort was made to forgive the conspirators who seceded. Instead of forgiving them and allowing them to re-form their governments, they should've been lined up and shot.

 

[rog1187]

SC's issue is rooted in their intent of thumbing their noses at forced integration in the early 60s. They started flying the stars and bars then over the capitol. 15 years ago, a compromise was reached that removed it from the capitol but kept it on the capitol grounds. If I was a black person, that would irritate me in a major way. As to the national park memorials, admittedly, I don't know much about whether flags are flown. what type, etc. Personally, I don't think we should honor the confederacy in any way, shape or form. They were traitors. Plain and simple. In the aftermath of the Civil War, too much effort was made to forgive the conspirators who seceded. Instead of forgiving them and allowing them to re-form their governments, they should've been lined up and shot.

The second monument I posted is from Gettysburg...it's a bronze replica of the Stars and Bars...and I'm sure there are other similar monuments throughout Gettysburg and other National Parks that are Civil War focused. I guess my (one) question is, if the SC memorial utilized a bronze Confederate flag instead of a "real" one, would this be an issue? Other questions might be, should we remove any other memorials that have the Stars and Bars on them...should we just remove all memorials associated with the Confederacy...should we remove any memorial that is has links to slavery - like any Jefferson memorials since he owned slaves?

 

[bornaneer]

Personally, I don't think we should honor the confederacy in any way, shape or form. They were traitors. Plain and simple. In the aftermath of the Civil War, too much effort was made to forgive the conspirators who seceded.

Try to not get all jacked up. I agree 100% with you on this. I would hope that all the statues of the Confederate traitors would soon be toppled and many highway be renamed.

 

[RichardPeterJohnson]

Try to not get all jacked up. I agree 100% with you on this. I would hope that all the statues of the Confederate traitors would soon be toppled and many highway be renamed.

Here in Tennessee, the is a bronze bust of Gen. Nathan Bedford Forest, Confederate General and later founder of the KKK in the state Capitol. There is also a park in Memphis named for him and I think a state forest as well. It is mind-boggling that people can't see the ridiculousness of honoring such a man. Only racists honor such a person.

 

[rog1187]

Here in Tennessee, the is a bronze bust of Gen. Nathan Bedford Forest, Confederate General and later founder of the KKK in the state Capitol. There is also a park in Memphis named for him and I think a state forest as well. It is mind-boggling that people can't see the ridiculousness of honoring such a man. Only racists honor such a person.

So would you be in favor of removing Byrd's name from many of the things in WV?

 

[RichardPeterJohnson]

So would you be in favor of removing Byrd's name from many of the things in WV?

Byrd atoned for his sins in a very public way.

 

[rog1187]

Byrd atoned for his sins in a very public way.

Oh so if other Confederates or KKK members "atoned" for their ways, then we can leave their names on roads, bridges, memorials, etc. Just what is the litmus test for atonement?

 

[bornaneer]

Here in Tennessee, the is a bronze bust of Gen. Nathan Bedford Forest, Confederate General and later founder of the KKK. There is also a park in Memphis named for him and I think a state forest as well. It is mind-boggling that people can't see the ridiculousness of honoring such a man. Only racists honor such a person.

Again I agree. I love living here in Jefferson County as it close to the DC and Baltimore metro areas and is probably the most progressive county in the state along with Monongalia County. However some locals still want the county to secede and rejoin Virginia and one can see rebel flags being displayed. I recently posted a comment about seeing a pickup truck displaying both the rebel flag and a elect Obama sticker, go figure..

 

[RichardPeterJohnson]

Oh so if other Confederates or KKK members "atoned" for their ways, then we can leave their names on roads, bridges, memorials, etc. Just what is the litmus test for atonement?

The litmus test for me is whether they committed treason against the United States-a capital offense. They deserved prosecution and punishment-not monuments and memorials.

 

[rog1187]

The litmus test for me is whether they committed treason against the United States-a capital offense. They deserved prosecution and punishment-not monuments and memorials.

So anyone involved with the Confederacy cannot atone for their crimes...former KKK members can atone for their membership in that hate group. I'm just asking what is it that former KKK members can do that will atone for their membership in that hate group?

 

[RichardPeterJohnson]

So anyone involved with the Confederacy cannot atone for their crimes...former KKK members can atone for their membership in that hate group. I'm just asking what is it that former KKK members can do that will atone for their membership in that hate group?

Anyone who committed treason against the US should not be honored. In addition to being a capital offense, treason disqualifies the offender from holding public office. Yet many of these traitors are still honored throughout the south.

As to the past KKK members, if they admit their wrongs and make amends and demonstrate their remorse, through acts consistent with that remorse, then I think they've atoned. As despicable as their acts were, they did not commit treason.

 

[rog1187]

So Byrd atoned for his connection to the hate group:

1. he was a Kleagle
2. he recruited members
3. he vowed never to fight “with a Negro by my side. Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds.”
4. even after he allegedly ended his ties with the KKK he wrote to the Imperial Wizard - “The Klan is needed today as never before and I am anxious to see its rebirth here in West Virginia” and “in every state in the Union.”
5. he filibustered the 1964 Civil Rights act for 14 hours
6. he opposed the nominations of the Supreme Court’s two black justices, liberal Thurgood Marshall and conservative Clarence Thomas.

 

[WVUBRU]

Flying a flag in the US is purely symbolic of something. Technically, it is only proper to fly the US flag at the highest level of any flagpole and then the any other government sanctioned flag at a lower level. Flying the Confederate Battle flag means many things to many people but to a large majority of people, it is a slap in their face. It is only right that out of respect, not to slap fellow Americans and one should not put it in public in an honorable way.

A monuments such as the one in Gettysburg is marking a very historical moment of this country. Putting the confederate battle flag on the monument is reflecting exactly what the history of that moment is reflecting. Sure, some people can be offended because the South's decision and why they seceded is indeed offensive but those same people need to realize it is marking a historical moment in time instead of honoring the meaning behind the symbol. This monument is no different than a museum and there is no problem with putting Confederate history in a museum to recognize the historical perspective. In fact, all of Gettysburg is one big museum and is one of the greatest places I have ever visited.

But most important, this country is built that the citizens having a freedom of speech. If an individual wants to insult and disrespect others by flying a flag, he has every right to do so. If others want to protest it, then you may in a civilized manner without breaking a law. But under no circumstance should a government represent a symbolic gesture that is as offensive as the Confederate flag. Governments are for all people for all moments (theoretically at least) and should be 100% neutral in these type of things. Having politicians intentionally ignoring that very basic principal is disgusting.

 

[rog1187]

Anyone who committed treason against the US should not be honored. In addition to being a capital offense, treason disqualifies the offender from holding public office. Yet many of these traitors are still honored throughout the south.

As to the past KKK members, if they admit their wrongs and make amends and demonstrate their remorse, through acts consistent with that remorse, then I think they've atoned. As despicable as their acts were, they did not commit treason.

In 1993 Byrd defended the patent of the United Daughters of the Confederacy on the Senate floor saying "The Confederacy is a part of American history." This as the female black Senator Carol Moseley Braun was fighting against the patent of the design which included the flag. Yep he atoned for sure.

 

[RichardPeterJohnson]

So Byrd atoned for his connection to the hate group:

1. he was a Kleagle
2. he recruited members
3. he vowed never to fight “with a Negro by my side. Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds.”
4. even after he allegedly ended his ties with the KKK he wrote to the Imperial Wizard - “The Klan is needed today as never before and I am anxious to see its rebirth here in West Virginia” and “in every state in the Union.”
5. he filibustered the 1964 Civil Rights act for 14 hours
6. he opposed the nominations of the Supreme Court’s two black justices, liberal Thurgood Marshall and conservative Clarence Thomas.

"Well, it's easy to state what has been my biggest mistake. The greatest mistake I ever made was joining the Ku Klux Klan. And I've said that many times. But one cannot erase what he has done. He can only change his ways and his thoughts. That was an albatross around my neck that I will always wear. You will read it in my obituary that I was a member of the Ku Klux Klan."-Robert C. Byrd

Byrd uttered those words in the early 90s and continued to apologize for his past until he died 20 years later. We all know you hate Byrd-the greatest WVian ever (except for Daniel Boone of course.....[roll]) may Big Daddy RIP.

 

[rog1187]

Flying a flag in the US is purely symbolic of something. Technically, it is only proper to fly the US flag at the highest level of any flagpole and then the any other government sanctioned flag at a lower level. Flying the Confederate Battle flag means many things to many people but to a large majority of people, it is a slap in their face. It is only right that out of respect, not to slap fellow Americans and one should not put it in public in an honorable way.

A monuments such as the one in Gettysburg is marking a very historical moment of this country. Putting the confederate battle flag on the monument is reflecting exactly what the history of that moment is reflecting. Sure, some people can be offended because the South's decision and why they seceded is indeed offensive but those same people need to realize it is marking a historical moment in time instead of honoring the meaning behind the symbol. This monument is no different than a museum and there is no problem with putting Confederate history in a museum to recognize the historical perspective. In fact, all of Gettysburg is one big museum and is one of the greatest places I have ever visited.

But most important, this country is built that the citizens having a freedom of speech. If an individual wants to insult and disrespect others by flying a flag, he has every right to do so. If others want to protest it, then you may in a civilized manner without breaking a law. But under no circumstance should a government represent a symbolic gesture that is as offensive as the Confederate flag. Governments are for all people for all moments (theoretically at least) and should be 100% neutral in these type of things. Having politicians intentionally ignoring that very basic principal is disgusting.

I think if the SC memorial utilized a bronze replica (like other memorials on government grounds) then we wouldn't be having this discussion about it.

 

[rog1187]

"Well, it's easy to state what has been my biggest mistake. The greatest mistake I ever made was joining the Ku Klux Klan. And I've said that many times. But one cannot erase what he has done. He can only change his ways and his thoughts. That was an albatross around my neck that I will always wear. You will read it in my obituary that I was a member of the Ku Klux Klan."-Robert C. Byrd

Byrd uttered those words in the early 90s and continued to apologize for his past until he died 20 years later. We all know you hate Byrd-the greatest WVian ever (except for Daniel Boone of course.....[roll]) may Big Daddy RIP.

Except that Byrd supported the use of the Confederate flag...so there's that for atonement.

 

[WVUBRU]

I think if the SC memorial utilized a bronze replica (like other memorials on government grounds) then we wouldn't be having this discussion about it.

I would think there would be a lot less discussion. Flying a flag regardless it is the confederate battle flag or the Tea Partiers flying the "Don't Tread on Me" flag are making a statement and statements can be perceived to be offensive. And there is no doubt the Confederate flag is very offensive to many if flown in honor as it currently is in S.C.

 

[WVUBRU]

One last thing and I'm done. I have no problem with a company selling Confederate flag items just like I have no issue with them selling Duck Dynasty stuff or the various musical groups in the early 2000's when the wingnuts were all up in arms with those that opposed the Bush Administration spoke out against them.

Hell, if I had time I would set up a website marketing and selling nothing but confederate stuff right now as that market is going to explode and stuff will be flying off of the shelves. Just because one wants to make money off of suckers doesn't mean they support the sucker's causes imo.

 

[rog1187]

"Well, it's easy to state what has been my biggest mistake. The greatest mistake I ever made was joining the Ku Klux Klan. And I've said that many times. But one cannot erase what he has done. He can only change his ways and his thoughts. That was an albatross around my neck that I will always wear. You will read it in my obituary that I was a member of the Ku Klux Klan."-Robert C. Byrd

Byrd uttered those words in the early 90s and continued to apologize for his past until he died 20 years later. We all know you hate Byrd-the greatest WVian ever (except for Daniel Boone of course.....[roll]) may Big Daddy RIP.

I'm sure that black Americans are happy that you, a white American, feel Byrd atoned for his past racist history. How very Liberal of you.[roll]

 

[countryroads89_rivals]

I'm sure that black Americans are happy that you, a white American, feel Byrd atoned for his past racist history. How very Liberal of you.[roll]

It's time to change your tampon, rog.

 

[DvlDog4WVU]

I'm sure that black Americans are happy that you, a white American, feel Byrd atoned for his past racist history. How very Liberal of you.[roll]

Come on man. He's like 1/8th black twice removed from his 3rd cousin's father in law. The man has some soul!