3. Abortion Policy — What Should We Do?

alaskanseminole · Monday at 8:05 AM

Next up in our 10-part series... we're moving on to abortion. Feel free to continue chiming in on #1 and #2 (links at bottom of thread). Same idea as before: DSA | mine | Project 2025. The goal is to figure out what we actually believe, why we believe it, and maybe find some common ground along the way.

Issue	DSA -- Official Position	alaskanseminole -- My Position	Project 2025 -- Official Position
Abortion Access & Limits	Supports reproductive autonomy and free abortion on demand; opposes legal restrictions on abortion access and supports repeal of the Hyde Amendment and public funding of abortion.	Generally pro-life. I believe unborn life has value and abortion should generally be restricted, with exceptions for rape, incest, and the life of the mother. But I'm not simply “pro-birth.” If we want women to choose life, we should also support policies and programs that help pregnant women, single mothers, and young mothers who may feel abortion is their only realistic option. Supporting life shouldn't end at birth.	Celebrates the overturning of Roe v. Wade and calls for the strongest protections for unborn life that Congress will support, while using existing federal authority and enforcing statutory restrictions on federal funding of abortion.

Where do you fall? Abortion on demand? A specific gestational limit? Rape, incest, and life-of-the-mother exceptions? A national standard or state-by-state policy? And should taxpayers fund abortions?

Rules
- No personal attacks.
- No trolling.
- Attack the argument, not the person.
- If you disagree, explain why.
- Bring facts/data when making factual claims whenever possible.
- Leave the team politics at the door.
- Changing your mind is allowed.

The Series
1. Social Security & Medicare
2. Immigration & Border Security

3. Abortion YOU ARE HERE
4. Guns & the 2nd Amendment
5. Healthcare
6. Taxes, Wealth & Government Spending
7. Energy, Climate & the Environment
8. LGBTQ Rights, Religion & Individual Liberty
9. Military, NATO & America's Role in the World
10. Government, Presidential Power & Constitutional Limits

Scrubby · Monday at 8:37 AM

Safe, legal and rare was a good approach. There is generally no need for a late term abortion, especially when the child can safely be delivered.

Cap abortions to a 14 week period. No tax payer money to go to abortions or clinics to offer the service for "free". The bill must be fully paid by the mother/insurance.

Woman's right to choose to abort the baby but father also gets new rights to abandon the child/mother if she chooses to keep the child. Zero financial obligations though choosing to go this route also forgeits all parental rights.

Important to note that abortion is murder. It should be called out for what it is. Given this reality I think this also opens up the conversation on capital punishment (which didn't make your list of topics). This should also be greatly expanded and enforced at a much quicker pace than it currently is.

scotchtiger · Monday at 9:56 AM

Philosophically, I lean pro-life. It's hard for me to imagine killing a perfectly healthy unborn baby, especially after becoming a father, seeing/hearing a heartbeat at 8 weeks, etc.

But I'm also a pragmatist. And there are certain things the vast majority of the country should agree on. With that, we should pass federal legislation that protects:

-- Rape, incest, health of mother, health/viability of baby
-- Contraception (its WILD to me that some states have thought about banning this)
-- IVF

These are generally 90-10 type issues. Wipe them off the table. No more "they're coming for your birth control" from the left. No more actual coming for birth control insanity on the right.

I would also force all health plans to cover contraception until age 25. I would make generic condoms free with an EBT card. I would pump every form of contraception we can into geographies with high levels of fatherless homes / pregnancies. Drop condoms with spermicide from drones if we need to in these areas. We need to work on the front-end to prevent these pregnancies in the first place.

This isn't universally supported like other concepts, but I would add an upper week limit for abortion-on-demand, with exceptions for specific medical conditions, etc. Even most EU countries cap this around 14 weeks.

Gibbs_dontbanmetom · Monday at 10:06 AM

scotchtiger said:
Philosophically, I lean pro-life. It's hard for me to imagine killing a perfectly healthy unborn baby, especially after becoming a father, seeing/hearing a heartbeat at 8 weeks, etc.

But I'm also a pragmatist. And there are certain things the vast majority of the country should agree on. With that, we should pass federal legislation that protects:

-- Rape, incest, health of mother, health/viability of baby
-- Contraception (its WILD to me that some states have thought about banning this)
-- IVF

These are generally 90-10 type issues. Wipe them off the table. No more "they're coming for your birth control" from the left. No more actual coming for birth control insanity on the right.

I would also force all health plans to cover contraception until age 25. I would make generic condoms free with an EBT card. I would pump every form of contraception we can into geographies with high levels of fatherless homes / pregnancies. Drop condoms with spermicide from drones if we need to in these areas. We need to work on the front-end to prevent these pregnancies in the first place.

This isn't universally supported like other concepts, but I would add an upper week limit for abortion-on-demand, with exceptions for specific medical conditions, etc. Even most EU countries cap this around 14 weeks.

If you are wanting to push condoms that hard in areas with fatherless homes, why not just give all the females an IUD if they can’t seem to keep their legs closed?
Maybe we need to push something similar to this for all females until they truly feel like they are ready to have children.
However, I do believe this type of stuff is what is actually causing issues with fertility. You have something blocking your body from becoming pregnant for years, eventually that’s going to do something to your body.

Ghee Buttersnaps 2 · Monday at 11:52 AM

It's definitely a hot topic.

Gibbs_dontbanmetom · Monday at 11:59 AM

Ghee Buttersnaps 2 said:
It's definitely a hot topic.

That red head reminds me of every lib I debate on this board. They get owned and can’t answer a question. Instead they try to divert and fail miserably once again.
to answer her own question at the end, the reason this is still debated 30 years after her mom was debating it is because none of them can come to the conclusion that a fetus is a living being. These are the same people claiming women’s rights, yet they have no clue what a woman is.

Ktrain1969 · Monday at 1:21 PM

Let abortions rain. Abortions for everyone. That's my view.

Rifler · Monday at 1:47 PM

While never wanting to be personally involved with using it as an option, I think I would support abortion on demand through 12 weeks,... Three months should be enough time.

Gibbs_dontbanmetom · Monday at 2:05 PM

Rifler said:
While never wanting to be personally involved with using it as an option, I think I would support abortion on demand through 12 weeks,... Three months should be enough time.

I’d add allowing it if there are any major medical issues for mom or baby as well. Should be a given but you need to remember who you are talking to.

Rifler · Monday at 2:08 PM

Gibbs_dontbanmetom said:
I’d add allowing it if there are any major medical issues for mom or baby as well. Should be a given but you need to remember who you are talking to.

Agreed,... medical conditions go without saying.

AFM22 · Monday at 2:09 PM

The only major medical issues you'd be able to catch before 12 weeks would be be chromosomal disorders and that is at 10-11 weeks and you'd have to have that through a blood test, who knows if they'd have the results back in the 12 week window. They don't even start ultrasounds to look for those structural issues until about 20 weeks.

Rifler · Monday at 2:18 PM

My position would be that medical conditions remove the 12 week window entirely,... If there is a doctor recommending the procedure then it's available.

Gibbs_dontbanmetom · Monday at 2:20 PM

AFM22 said:
The only major medical issues you'd be able to catch before 12 weeks would be be chromosomal disorders and that is at 10-11 weeks and you'd have to have that through a blood test, who knows if they'd have the results back in the 12 week window. They don't even start ultrasounds to look for those structural issues until about 20 weeks.

And your point? You need to know if it is retarded/disfigured to know if you need to abort and that doesn’t give you enough time, is that the issue?

Urohawk · Monday at 2:25 PM

Gibbs_dontbanmetom said:
That red head reminds me of every lib I debate on this board. They get owned and can’t answer a question. Instead they try to divert and fail miserably once again.
to answer her own question at the end, the reason this is still debated 30 years after her mom was debating it is because none of them can come to the conclusion that a fetus is a living being. These are the same people claiming women’s rights, yet they have no clue what a woman is.

The counter to this argument is cancer. I think the technology exists to be able to take tumor cells, insert DNA to correct the genetic error, and develop them into a human. Cancer is alive an cancer is human.

Urohawk · Monday at 2:33 PM

I don't think we have a government that is representative of the population despite being a Democratic Republic. Until our government is a better reflection of the population, I don't favor tough/restrictive bans. I would conceded and agree to tough restrictive abortion bans when we do the following:

1. Properly care for children- Good schools, universal health care, food availability to all, free daycare.
2. Free and easy access to birth control- Covered universally by health care, proper school education, access at any age.
3. Governmental representation by women- When the government is 50/50 men vs women.
4. Men step up- As alluded to by our resident trolls, woman should shut their legs. The reality is that men should stop getting their dicks wet. When they do, they pay the consequences by stepping up and being fathers, financially supporting their baby momma, etc. We no longer get/deserve casual sex where we get to impregnate someone and walk away. Women are left with the consequences and men absolve themselves of responsibility. Men who do this should be shamed and dismissed by society. If you father a child and don't take care of it, you are complete scum.

Gibbs_dontbanmetom · Monday at 2:41 PM

Urohawk said:
The counter to this argument is cancer. I think the technology exists to be able to take tumor cells, insert DNA to correct the genetic error, and develop them into a human. Cancer is alive a cancer is human.

So we can only try to kill cancer before birth?

scotchtiger · Monday at 5:52 PM

Urohawk said:
I don't think we have a government that is representative of the population despite being a Democratic Republic. Until our government is a better reflection of the population, I don't favor tough/restrictive bans. I would conceded and agree to tough restrictive abortion bans when we do the following:

1. Properly care for children- Good schools, universal health care, food availability to all, free daycare.
2. Free and easy access to birth control- Covered universally by health care, proper school education, access at any age.
3. Governmental representation by women- When the government is 50/50 men vs women.
4. Men step up- As alluded to by our resident trolls, woman should shut their legs. The reality is that men should stop getting their dicks wet. When they do, they pay the consequences by stepping up and being fathers, financially supporting their baby momma, etc. We no longer get/deserve casual sex where we get to impregnate someone and walk away. Women are left with the consequences and men absolve themselves of responsibility. Men who do this should be shamed and dismissed by society. If you father a child and don't take care of it, you're are complete scum.

On #4, I enthusiastically agree. I would never get elected, but my position would be:

— Deadbeat dads should have their wages garnished to repay any government assistance provided to their baby and baby mama due to their absence.
— This is for life. Wages docked for as long as it takes, 10 years or 50 years. Even their SS benefits can be docked until taxpayers are made whole on their support of deadbeat’s family.
— Entitlement requests for single moms / kids must include a paternity test. If the dad won’t submit, the mother can file a request and he will be forced to comply. This way we can ensure the dad is documented and held accountable.
— Dads in jail or otherwise total failures … not sure what to do there. Women should probably avoid these losers.

scotchtiger · Monday at 5:56 PM

Urohawk said:
I don't think we have a government that is representative of the population despite being a Democratic Republic. Until our government is a better reflection of the population, I don't favor tough/restrictive bans. I would conceded and agree to tough restrictive abortion bans when we do the following:

1. Properly care for children- Good schools, universal health care, food availability to all, free daycare.
2. Free and easy access to birth control- Covered universally by health care, proper school education, access at any age.
3. Governmental representation by women- When the government is 50/50 men vs women.
4. Men step up- As alluded to by our resident trolls, woman should shut their legs. The reality is that men should stop getting their dicks wet. When they do, they pay the consequences by stepping up and being fathers, financially supporting their baby momma, etc. We no longer get/deserve casual sex where we get to impregnate someone and walk away. Women are left with the consequences and men absolve themselves of responsibility. Men who do this should be shamed and dismissed by society. If you father a child and don't take care of it, you're are complete scum.

Separate post for your others.

1. Who will pay for this?

2. I’m good with this. See my earlier post.

3. We shouldn’t mandate who is elected, just as we shouldn’t make hiring decisions based on gender or race.

PedMaller · Monday at 6:22 PM

Rifler said:
My position would be that medical conditions remove the 12 week window entirely,... If there is a doctor recommending the procedure then it's available.

Not a good idea. There will be plenty of pro-choice doctors willing to kill babies beyond this window. Just claim you’re having mental issues/suicidal thoughts or find a liberal Doc who can find a variety of sketchy reasons you need to abort.

If you don’t think this will happen, check out all the crazy libs defending the woman who planned out the murder of her 3 kids. That b!tch deserves the chair, not sympathy.

Urohawk · Monday at 6:44 PM

Gibbs_dontbanmetom said:
So we can only try to kill cancer before birth?

It's alive and it's human....it's the crux of her argument.

LiveFreeOrDie97 · Monday at 7:35 PM

History as a guide, 99% of them are going to turn into shite humans anyway. Great debut album btw.

GesterHawk · Monday at 7:35 PM

I don't think I would have tried to talk a girlfriend or a dalliance into an abortion as younger Gester, but I also wouldn't have tried to stop them.

Now older Gester knows that is how he would have reacted. I can't make that choice for a woman and I don't think anyone in DC, Des Moines, etc should either.

I'd never endorse it, but I endorse a woman's right to choose it for themselves.

It is between a woman and her to deity.

As far as timing, it is generally accepted that viability with any chance of future success is 24 weeks (I know some one, or multiple people will try to argue that timing, but generally accepted it is). If it can't survive outside the womb, all concerns should default to the mother - even if that concern is to not move forward.

If there is ever a doubt about health, the concerns of the mother win. The mother should be the only one to decide to put her life on the line for the fetus.

No one should be forced to carry their rapist's fetus.
No should be forced to carry the fetus caused by incest.

No one should be forced to leave the state they live in to get reproductive healthcare.

No one should fear being arrested for a miscarriage.

RockyMtNole · Monday at 7:50 PM

PedMaller said:
Not a good idea. There will be plenty of pro-choice doctors willing to kill babies beyond this window. Just claim you’re having mental issues/suicidal thoughts or find a liberal Doc who can find a variety of sketchy reasons you need to abort.

If you don’t think this will happen, check out all the crazy libs defending the woman who planned out the murder of her 3 kids. That b!tch deserves the chair, not sympathy.

That’s the risk you take if you want a time limit.
There aren’t that many docs who would do that.

ClemsonInAtlanta · Monday at 9:09 PM

Up to 14 weeks ok for any reason
Anytime ok when medically necessary/rape/incest
Covered by Medicaid/insurances universally at 100%
Allow father to forfeit all visitation rights/custody in perpetuity in exchange for not owing child support if mother insists and father doesn’t want it

at the end of the day kids who grow up in homes where they weren’t wanted in the first place tend to not do well. Not saying they never do, but the cards are stacked against them

crime is higher in places without abortion access

Gibbs_dontbanmetom · Monday at 9:16 PM

Urohawk said:
It's alive and it's human....it's the crux of her argument.

So we are able to kill it because it is inside someone’s body? Why don’t we just start allowing killing outside the body. Plenty of pos people are roaming around.

Moogy · Monday at 9:54 PM

Abortion is a very messy issue, but one of the things that always leaves me scratching my head is the existence of folks who say human life begins at conception, therefore no abortions should be allowed EXCEPT in cases of incest or rape.

The "no abortions" stance is based on the determination that you can't just have a mother chose to kill a human, even if it's inside her, growing through various stages of development, and is innocent of any wrongdoing. So, you simply can't chose to kill that human life. It's murder.

But then these people apparently see how awful that could be in the case of incest or rape ... having to live with the product of those crimes and abuses inside of them, so their humanity kicks in and they say ... well, then abortion is acceptable. Huh? That baby growing inside the mother is still a living human, and is still innocent. So aborting it is STILL murder, regardless of how it came to be.

Even though I disagree with the hardcore anti-abortionist's stance, I have more respect for their argument than I do for the ones who claim to be anti-abortion on the basis of the unborn baby is an innocent human life and willfully ending that life is murder, but still are OK with allowing murder in certain circumstances.

That should be a signal to those folks that their logic isn't working, but they don't see it.

Jerome Silberman · Monday at 10:15 PM

It's so f!cking weird that people are so full of themselves that they want their own opinion on the matter to be involved in a decision that should be between a doctor and a pregnant person.

Truly a puritanical or dark ages mindset.

GesterHawk · Monday at 10:29 PM

Jerome Silberman said:
It's so f!cking weird that people are so full of themselves that they want their own opinion on the matter to be involved in a decision that should be between a doctor and a pregnant person.

Truly a puritanical or dark ages mindset.

Hell, I don't even think a doctor should be involved outside simple statements of facts and outlining medical information.
Teach an AI bot to do that so that a doctor's own feelings aren't a part of it.

alaskanseminole · 2026-09-01T05:28:58-0500

Moogy said:
Abortion is a very messy issue, but one of the things that always leaves me scratching my head is the existence of folks who say human life begins at conception, therefore no abortions should be allowed EXCEPT in cases of incest or rape.

The "no abortions" stance is based on the determination that you can't just have a mother chose to kill a human, even if it's inside her, growing through various stages of development, and is innocent of any wrongdoing. So, you simply can't chose to kill that human life. It's murder.

But then these people apparently see how awful that could be in the case of incest or rape ... having to live with the product of those crimes and abuses inside of them, so their humanity kicks in and they say ... well, then abortion is acceptable. Huh? That baby growing inside the mother is still a living human, and is still innocent. So aborting it is STILL murder, regardless of how it came to be.

Even though I disagree with the hardcore anti-abortionist's stance, I have more respect for their argument than I do for the ones who claim to be anti-abortion on the basis of the unborn baby is an innocent human life and willfully ending that life is murder, but still are OK with allowing murder in certain circumstances.

That should be a signal to those folks that their logic isn't working, but they don't see it.

Rebecca Kiessling was the result of her mom being raped and is a huge advocate for pro-life.

scotchtiger · 2026-09-01T05:33:11-0500

ClemsonInAtlanta said:
Up to 14 weeks ok for any reason
Anytime ok when medically necessary/rape/incest
Covered by Medicaid/insurances universally at 100%
Allow father to forfeit all visitation rights/custody in perpetuity in exchange for not owing child support if mother insists and father doesn’t want it

at the end of the day kids who grow up in homes where they weren’t wanted in the first place tend to not do well. Not saying they never do, but the cards are stacked against them

crime is higher in places without abortion access

On the bold part, this shouldn’t get them off the hook for financial support if required. If they forfeit visitation, but the child and mother need SNAP, CHIP, housing support or other welfare, the father should be forced to financially contribute or reimburse taxpayers for supporting his child.

scotchtiger · 2026-09-01T06:08:45-0500

Jerome Silberman said:
It's so f!cking weird that people are so full of themselves that they want their own opinion on the matter to be involved in a decision that should be between a doctor and a pregnant person.

Truly a puritanical or dark ages mindset.

I’m more on the pro choice side from a policy standpoint, but I think it weird that people are so full of themselves that they can’t understand why someone would want to protect a living baby with a heartbeat from being killed.

Jerome Silberman · 2026-09-01T08:03:58-0500

scotchtiger said:
I’m more on the pro choice side from a policy standpoint, but I think it weird that people are so full of themselves that they can’t understand why someone would want to protect a living baby with a heartbeat from being killed.

The whole world knows that. People that share your opinion are not subtle about in any way.

Good luck with the god complex, Batman.

Jerome Silberman · 2026-09-01T08:05:25-0500

GesterHawk said:
Hell, I don't even think a doctor should be involved outside simple statements of facts and outlining medical information.
Teach an AI bot to do that so that a doctor's own feelings aren't a part of it.

There are many doctors. I'd prefer Ai stick to f@cking up peoples diabetes and ed treatments.

GesterHawk · 2026-09-01T10:12:57-0500

alaskanseminole said:
Rebecca Kiessling was the result of her mom being raped and is a huge advocate for pro-life.

Her mother was allowed to make a choice.
Rebecca is allowed to make her choice to be pro-life.

They should not get to make that choice for anyone else.

FLaw47 · 2026-09-01T11:17:50-0500

scotchtiger said:
I’m more on the pro choice side from a policy standpoint, but I think it weird that people are so full of themselves that they can’t understand why someone would want to protect a living baby with a heartbeat from being killed.

I just think every one of these "life begins at conception" people is full of it. I have two children and I'm profoundly more pro-choice than I was before I had kids (which was already quite pro-choice).

Pregnancy is gnarly. It's not just some mild inconvenience like a younger me had thought. My wife's body is permanently changed (worse in numerous ways) as a result of her pregnancies.
I tend to think of humans as being more valuable than animals because of our ability to think and have distinct senses of self. I witnessed nothing in my boys that seemed like a "person" until they were months old, so I don't have any concerns about a fetus being a person. It may be a human but it's not a person. (I'm not advocating for it to be legal to kill 2 month old's. They do have value and you can't just kill them just like you can't go around killing puppies either.)
Almost everyone fundamentally understands that fetuses aren't the same thing as people. So life begins at conception and that life is equally valuable to that of the mother?
- Do you support IUDs or birth control pills? Many of those prevent implantation after conception.
- Why aren't we having funerals for the approximately 30% of pregnancies that end with an actual person who has value dying? In my entire life, I've never seen a funeral for a miscarried fetus. Why aren't we doing autopsies?
- Exceptions for rape/incest? Why does that matter if it's an actual person who has value?
- We all seem to fundamentally understand that a stillbirth is orders of magnitude less tragic than a 5 year old dying.
In summary, I think most people who are pro-life don't even actually believe their own arguments. Let women do whatever their conscience will allow when their body is on the line.

alaskanseminole · 2026-09-01T13:07:36-0500

let's lighten the mood.

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ClemsonInAtlanta · 2026-09-01T17:31:43-0500

scotchtiger said:
On the bold part, this shouldn’t get them off the hook for financial support if required. If they forfeit visitation, but the child and mother need SNAP, CHIP, housing support or other welfare, the father should be forced to financially contribute or reimburse taxpayers for supporting his child.

I could get behind that. I probably feel the least strongly about that portion of my post.

Aardvark86 · 2026-09-01T17:48:14-0500

Full disclosure. I was adopted as a newborn so I’ve not really liked the thought of the alternative. And that “blob” ain’t a rhinoceros.

I like your approach that is generally restrictive but puts the money where the mouth is in terms of support.

alaskanseminole · 2026-09-01T20:05:04-0500

Personally, I don't think we should be dismissive of anyone's position here. IMO, no single person represents an entire group of thought. Are there men who genuinely just want to control women? Yup. Are there women who probably couldn't care less about the unborn and would have an abortion w/o giving it a second thought. Yup. But I don't think either represents everyone.

Truth be told this is probably the social issue I struggle with the most. ...I find abortion horrific but I also recognize we live in a society that is never going to completely agree on this. So I tend to look at it two ways. First, I'm free to be pro-life and make that choice for myself and my family. Second, from a policy standpoint, I'd rather work towards things we can find compromises on and focus on reducing the number of abortions in the first place. To do that we have to understand all ther easons why women get them in the first place.

I think it's dumb to stand outside an abortion clinic yelling at people. I'd rather see adoption resources, counseling, social workers, financial assistance, etc. ...basically people willing to walk alongside a woman and say, "Okay, if you choose to have this baby, let's figure out how we're going to help you do it." I support pro-life, not just "pro-birth."

3. Abortion Policy — What Should We Do?

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