Where are all the fiscal conservatives?
- Thread starter Rastafarian
- Start date
Agree with most of this. One thing I will point out though: Only one of the two parties consistently lies about being fiscally conservative only to turn around and spend like a drunken sailor when in office.
To me that makes this NOT a both sides thing. The Dems don’t claim fiscal conservatism so when they get elected it isn’t under a false pretense - not that I’m a fan of their “spendy” ways.
But the GOP? They cry and cry about spending when they don’t hold the reins. Once they get they shift into spending mode. That is worse IMO. And I find it shocking that the GOP base just goes along with it like good lemmings off a cliff.
Are you a lemming or do you agree the GOP is the party of fiscal hypocrisy?
They deserve criticism, for sure. But in their defense, Bush and Trump handed them disasters they had to address.
As a lefty, it's terribly frustrating to watch Republicans create massive harm that the Dems have to spend all their time cleaning up.
Not saying the Ds have never passed on major problems, too. LBJ handed Nixon the Vietnam War, for example. But Nixon and the Rs just kept it going rather than fixing it. Obama and Biden both lived up to their responsibilities to work for America.
If companies paid the illegal tariffs, they should get refunds. If they passed along those tariffs as price increases, consumers should get refunds, too.
Why do I think only the first part of that will actually happen?
everyone agrees....but how do you figure out on who paid what in tariffs. I probably bought a bunch of stuff during the tariff period. I was quoted a price...I paid that price, I have no idea which part of that was tariff.
Put the burden on the seller. If Amazon is asking for a refund of $100 million, ask them to show not merely that they paid that to the government, but also show that it was not passed along.
Tricky, but start with the proposition that without the tariffs, prices would have stayed steady. That's a rebuttable presumption, of course, but make Amazon rebut it. They have the data and the computing power.
$100 million should be sufficient incentive for Amazon to crunch the numbers.
Exempt small businesses.
sounds easy...Amazon has already said something to the effect that they were going to lower prices as a means to "pay back" the tsriffs.
It's not the companies that willfully imposed or raised the tariffs, they were just responding to the government.
I was a fiscal conservative. Now I'm just a fiscal... something? I hate big government spending. There's no plan for our debt. None.
And the next president will be worse. Nobody is running on the platform of “more taxes” and “less spending”.
The more you spend the more people think “you can spend more for my thing that hasn’t been addressed yet”.
The more you spend the more people think “you can spend more for my thing that hasn’t been addressed yet”.
So Trump and Biden doubled the national debt.
Reagan and GHW Bush quadrupled it!
Under $1 trillion from Carter; over $4 trillion passed to Clinton.
| Presidential Term | President | Party | Start Debt-to-GDP | End Debt-to-GDP | Net Change (Percentage Points) |
| 1969–1973 | Richard Nixon | Republican | ~38.6% | ~35.6% | -3.0% |
| 1973–1977 | Richard Nixon / Gerald Ford | Republican | ~35.6% | ~35.8% | +0.2% |
| 1977–1981 | Jimmy Carter | Democratic | ~35.8% | ~32.5% | -3.3% |
| 1981–1985 | Ronald Reagan | Republican | ~32.5% | ~43.8% | +11.3% |
| 1985–1989 | Ronald Reagan | Republican | ~43.8% | ~53.1% | +9.3% |
| 1989–1993 | George H.W. Bush | Republican | ~53.1% | ~66.1% | +13.0% |
| 1993–1997 | Bill Clinton | Democratic | ~66.1% | ~65.4% | -0.7% |
| 1997–2001 | Bill Clinton | Democratic | ~65.4% | ~56.4% | -9.0% |
| 2001–2005 | George W. Bush | Republican | ~56.4% | ~63.5% | +7.1% |
| 2005–2009 | George W. Bush | Republican | ~63.5% | ~84.2% | +20.7% |
| 2009–2013 | Barack Obama | Democratic | ~84.2% | ~102.7% | +18.5% |
| 2013–2017 | Barack Obama | Democratic | ~102.7% | ~106.1% | +3.4% |
| 2017–2021 | Donald Trump | Republican | ~106.1% | ~128.1% | +22.0% |
| 2021–2025 | Joe Biden | Democratic | ~128.1% | ~122.0% | -6.1% |
| Metric | Republican Party | Democratic Party |
| Total Terms Included | 8 terms | 6 terms |
| Cumulative Change Across Era | +80.6 percentage points | +2.8 percentage points |
| Average Change per 4-Year Term | +10.08 percentage points | +0.47 percentage points |
| Average Change per Administration | +16.12 percentage points (5 presidencies) | +0.70 percentage points (4 presidencies) |
- Republican Administrations (Average: +16.12 points)
- Nixon / Ford (1969–1977): -2.8 points
- Reagan (1981–1989): +20.6 points
- G.H.W. Bush (1989–1993): +13.0 points
- G.W. Bush (2001–2009): +27.8 points
- Trump (2017–2021): +22.0 points
- Democratic Administrations (Average: +0.70 points)
- Carter (1977–1981): -3.3 points
- Clinton (1993–2001): -9.7 points
- Obama (2009–2017): +21.9 points
- Biden (2021–2025): -6.1 points
- Congressional Role: Article I of the U.S. Constitution gives Congress the power of the purse. Several significant fiscal shifts (such as the 1990 tax increases, the 1997 balanced budget act, and major pandemic relief packages) occurred during periods of divided government where the party holding the White House did not control both houses of Congress.
- Exogenous Shocks & Lagged Effects: Major spikes in debt-to-GDP often align with external crises rather than purely partisan fiscal policy—such as the 2008 Financial Crisis (overlapping G.W. Bush and Obama) and the 2020 COVID-19 pandemic (overlapping Trump and Biden).
- Economic Cycles: High inflation periods (like the late 1970s or post-2021) naturally shrink the debt-to-GDP ratio by boosting nominal GDP, whereas economic recessions instantly compress GDP while triggering automatic stabilizer spending (unemployment, safety nets).
and herein lies a flaw in our government..so we have had two Presidents during that 10 years and if you asked who, or which party is to blame, republicans say Dems and dems say republicans, and both are right
I used to be a fiscal conservative until DOGE was rejected.
Now I firmly believe growth is the ONLY way out of our debt problems. Grow or die under the weight of our debt.
Only one of those parties lowered income taxes for the wealthy and corporations and then started an unnecessary and unfunded war in the Middle East. I will give you a hint as to which one-it’s the same one that lowered taxes and started an unnecessary and unfunded war in the Middle East.
It seems everyone thinks we have a spending issue, and to be clear, we do. But we also have a major reduction in tax revenue tracing back to Reganomics and the trickle down theory that clearly was a farce. Only way to get this better involves raising income taxes on the Epstein class, closing loop holes, and raising corporate taxes combined with reducing spending, first and foremost in the military.
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We have a spending issue. Cut taxes, stimulate the economy, and let’s grow our way out of this *****. It’s the only way.
I wish this was a solution, but it is impossible for all practical purposes.
I believe our FY 2026 deficit was ~1.9T (which I think we are overspending already but let’s roll with that number).
Assuming your growth plan comes with the same federal tax mix then nominal GDP would have to grow by $10.9T at the current Federal revenue/GDP ratio.
That is a growth rate of 34%
That type of growth brings with It a ton of inflation. Which also means Fed outlays are going to go up as everything becomes more expensive. So the only way make this work is to freeze outlays and wait however many years for this growth to happen. Everyday people will get impacted and pressure their politicians to increase outlays. I just don’t see how this path works.
Which means we are likely headed for hyperinflation at some point. That will NOT be good for domestic stability - nor global stability for that matter. That is possibly existential and no one in DC gives a sh*t.
We have to get real growth, not the kind of inflation growth Biden bought us.
AI will bring us real growth.
We have no choice. We have no appetite to cut spending, and the current path is unsustainable. That leaves one way out.
You are about to see growth, net of inflation, like you have never seen before or we will die as a country.
We are not headed for high inflation, we will have real productivity gains. (One caveat is Iran war, high gas will bring high inflation. I'm assuming that get works out)
AI will bring us real growth.
We have no choice. We have no appetite to cut spending, and the current path is unsustainable. That leaves one way out.
You are about to see growth, net of inflation, like you have never seen before or we will die as a country.
We are not headed for high inflation, we will have real productivity gains. (One caveat is Iran war, high gas will bring high inflation. I'm assuming that get works out)
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And that doesn't even include Trump's current term.
Another thing to think about is the extent to which damaging, debt-raising events were voluntary or not.
The OPEC embargos of the 1970s were not voluntary.
The Pandemic was not voluntary.
Some would ague that the first year or 2 of the Afgan war were not voluntary.
The deregulation, Iraq war and tax cuts for the rich leading to the 2008-9 economic collapse under GW Bush were all voluntary.
The tax cuts and tariffs and wars under Trump have all been voluntary.
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No we don't. It doesn't matter how much we spend. What matters is whether we take in sufficient revenue to pay the bills. That and whether we are getting our money's worth.
until both parties are serious about the debt, both will just blame the other and nothing will get done
If only there was a pattern to see there in the numbers. Also keep in mind Obama’s first term was spent having to government spend ourselves out of the worse economic times since the Great Depression. Like I said above, it started with Reagan cutting taxes but not spending.
Your numbers make my brain hurt.
Thanks to the policies and wars of the Trump admin, a global depression is increasingly likely. The US is just starting to feel it, but the US is better situated than most nations to weather it. Like the pandemic, we'll see it coming but probably won't prepare for it.
Could we have hyperinflation first? Absolutely.
Could hyperinflation be a trigger for a new depression? Quite likely.
I was curious about the hyperinflation in Germany after WWI. Here's what Gemini says. Note the bit at the end talking about the lack of a safety net.
Hyperinflation Peak (1921–1923)
Germany’s hyperinflation peaked in late 1923. It wiped out savings, destroyed the middle class's financial security, and destabilized the Weimar Republic politically. However, it did not cause a prolonged economic depression at that time.
The Stabilization Period (1924–1929)
In late 1923 and 1924, Germany introduced a new currency (the Rentenmark) and negotiated the Dawes Plan. This allowed massive amounts of foreign capital—primarily U.S. short-term loans—to flow into Germany. The mid-to-late 1920s actually brought a period of recovery and modernization known as the "Golden Twenties."
The Great Depression Hits (1929)
The crisis that eventually crushed Germany’s economy came from the outside. When the U.S. stock market crashed in October 1929, American banks abruptly recalled their short-term loans to Germany. This sudden withdrawal of capital collapsed Germany’s banking system and triggered catastrophic, sky-high unemployment.
The Psychological Connection
While hyperinflation didn't cause the Great Depression, it set the stage for its political fallout. Because Germans had already lost their savings to inflation six years earlier, they had no financial safety net when the 1929 depression hit. That combination of recent trauma and sudden mass unemployment destroyed faith in democratic institutions, ultimately fueling the rise of extreme political movements like the Nazi Party.
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You make some good points.
AI should definitely generate growth. It already is. But is it sustainable?
If that growth coincides with massive layoffs, who's going to be buying the products?
Please, some of us are talking about real things, not focused on blame and using that as an excuse to do nothing.
That said, it's clear that one party has been much worse than the other, but neither has been as responsible as it should be. The real issue is what can we do about it.
Given the looming midterm elections, obviously no sane person should vote for any Republican, ever. But even if the Dems are in charge, if they are owned by the same oligarchs who own the GOP, will enough change?
If we vote out the bums, who's left standing?
Yes we do. We aren't getting our money's worth and we never will with the government.
And the first 2 years of Biden's term was spent on the pandemic. I'm not blaming Trump for the pandemic (just for his tax cuts and deficits at that point; the wars came later). But other than vaccine development on his watch, Trump did handle it poorly - leaving a mess for the next guy . . . as per usual for Republican Presidents.
Amazing how Reagan, HGW Bush, GW Bush and Trump make Nixon look good. Who'd a thunk it?
I am saying we need to cut spending. Across the board 10% cut. We can't afford it.
We're the richest nation in the history of the world. OF COURSE WE CAN AFFORD IT.
What I suspect you mean is that you, personally, don't want to afford it. Which is a perspective you are certainly entitled to hold.
I pay my fair share of taxes I promise you that. I was against the BBB tax cuts. But we need to come at it from both sides. The waste and fraud are a real issue. Make them tighten their belts.
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