July Competitive Balance committee minutes: Must read

4Afan

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Been curious about this since it came out. Will be interesting to see how this works for football, if it were to pass.

If the go back to 32 teams per class in the playoffs, God willing, then there would only be able to be 4 non-public schools per class. I wonder how they would determine who gets in. Could a 6-3 Rita get left out because they were the 5th ranked non-public in 7A, but a 4-5 Franny makes it in 5A because there were only 4 non-public schools that qualified for that class?
 

SiuCubFan8

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Been curious about this since it came out. Will be interesting to see how this works for football, if it were to pass.

If the go back to 32 teams per class in the playoffs, God willing, then there would only be able to be 4 non-public schools per class. I wonder how they would determine who gets in. Could a 6-3 Rita get left out because they were the 5th ranked non-public in 7A, but a 4-5 Franny makes it in 5A because there were only 4 non-public schools that qualified for that class?
Do teams then choose to play up or not play up to land in certain classes, impact on non-con scheduling, moving even further away from a true state champ in ind classes, do kids really want something like this(i know they have no vote), is the multiplier re-thought, does it actually solve anything? Lots of unintended consequences here that really need to be thought out before it could be voted on but................IHSA.
 
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4Afan

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Do teams then choose to play up or not play up to land in certain classes, impact on non-con scheduling, moving even further away from a true state champ in ind classes, do kids really want something like this(i know they have no vote), is the multiplier re-thought, does it actually solve anything? Lots of unintended consequences here that really need to be thought out before it could be voted on but................IHSA.
Would definitely see teams jumping classes to try and land in the best scenario, the issue with petitioning to another class is that it's a 2 year commitment. The notes do mention discussing the multiplier and success factors.
 

SiuCubFan8

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Would definitely see teams jumping classes to try and land in the best scenario, the issue with petitioning to another class is that it's a 2 year commitment. The notes do mention discussing the multiplier and success factors.
True, it's a gamble to start jumping around classes for a 2 year commitment.

I've read about other states punishing teams for breaking by-laws, maybe I am totally off here but it seems the IHSA has thrown up their hands. Maybe we hold team(s) to the by-laws before making a drastic change like this.
 
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Colin2299

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Been curious about this since it came out. Will be interesting to see how this works for football, if it were to pass.

If the go back to 32 teams per class in the playoffs, God willing, then there would only be able to be 4 non-public schools per class. I wonder how they would determine who gets in. Could a 6-3 Rita get left out because they were the 5th ranked non-public in 7A, but a 4-5 Franny makes it in 5A because there were only 4 non-public schools that qualified for that class?
The only rational answer for this proposal (only (1) private in the elite 8) is to address the out pour of negative feedback the IHSA received when they announced the new playoff format. The overwhelming response was that this new format is only going to provide more private schools in the tourney and thus creating more of a private dominance.

IMO - this proposal will only put more egg on the IHSA's face by providing less competitive title games for all to see on TV when the IHSA is on display. Say what you want about privates and their unfair advantages but when there are (2) privates in a title game - most often it's a great game.
 
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Colin2299

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Would definitely see teams jumping classes to try and land in the best scenario, the issue with petitioning to another class is that it's a 2 year commitment. The notes do mention discussing the multiplier and success factors.
It will be LOL with what they come up with to address the multiplier/success factor. As it sits, numerous privates wouldn't get success factored anymore since only one will be in the elite 8.
 
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4Afan

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The only rational answer for this proposal (only (1) private in the elite 8) is to address the out pour of negative feedback the IHSA received when they announced the new playoff format. The overwhelming response was that this new format is only going to provide more private schools in the tourney and thus creating more of a private dominance.

IMO - this proposal will only put more egg on the IHSA's face by providing less competitive title games for all to see on TV when the IHSA is on display. Say what you want about privates and their unfair advantages but when there are (2) privates in a title game - most often it's a great game.
Well this would be for all sports and in every other sport all teams make the post season so the new playoff format for football is only a small part of the equation.

Also, if Edgy's intel is accurate, this may be the only year of the expanded playoffs and any new implementation of only 1 non-public school per class making the quarters wouldn't go into effect until next year at the earliest, so the playoff format for this year wouldn't matter.
 

Colin2299

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Well this would be for all sports and in every other sport all teams make the post season so the new playoff format for football is only a small part of the equation.

Also, if Edgy's intel is accurate, this may be the only year of the expanded playoffs and any new implementation of only 1 non-public school per class making the quarters wouldn't go into effect until next year at the earliest, so the playoff format for this year wouldn't matter.
If this format only lasts for (1) year the amount of blow back the IHSA is going to receive will be intense. Schools needed to scramble for a week 1 game this year and will need to scramble next year to reverse it.

Maybe they should stop making such short sided decisions.
 
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4Afan

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If this format only lasts for (1) year the amount of blow back the IHSA is going to receive will be intense. Schools needed to scramble for a week 1 game this year and will need to scramble next year to reverse it.

Maybe they should stop making such short sided decisions.
They didn't make a decision on anything, it was voted on by the schools so no blow back should be directed at the IHSA.
 
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McCaravan

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If this system was in place last season then the I'm guessing the State Champions still would have been MC in 8A over Oswego, BR in 7A over either Batavia or Hersey, Fenwick over ESL in 6A as the game was played that night not in a do over, Franny or PC over whatever Public team they eliminated to get there in 5A, and Montini over Rochester in 4A......so no difference outside of Rita who won overwhelmingly over Hersey and Batavia not getting the chance to play BR or at least being named runner up and the same for Franny or PC. In 8A it kind of went like that this pass season as MC beat LA in round 1, but I wouldn't count on either team having too many 4 loss seasons in the upcoming years.

This system will not stop Private schools from winning their respected classes, it will only eliminate a school that may have very well made the Championship game get eliminated 2 rounds sooner. All this does is guarantee at least one public school the chance to win a Championship which last year was the case in all but 2 classes.

If the Public school wins, all is right with the IL football universe, if they lose, the complainers will continue to complain. So would this system really fix anything? I don't think so. It will make the Catholic League side of the Prep Bowl really competitive!
 

McCaravan

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Well this would be for all sports and in every other sport all teams make the post season so the new playoff format for football is only a small part of the equation.

Also, if Edgy's intel is accurate, this may be the only year of the expanded playoffs and any new implementation of only 1 non-public school per class making the quarters wouldn't go into effect until next year at the earliest, so the playoff format for this year wouldn't matter.
Would this even work in the way the basketball and baseball playoffs are set up? Or Wrestling? Girls Volleyball? Would McAuley and Marist play in round 1? 2 nationally ranked teams? Libertyville has won the highest class in baseball and beat Maine South in the Championship does that have to be changed? Or is this just for Football which seems to make the most noise?
 

4Afan

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Would this even work in the way the basketball and baseball playoffs are set up? Or Wrestling? Girls Volleyball? Would McAuley and Marist play in round 1? 2 nationally ranked teams? Libertyville has won the highest class in baseball and beat Maine South in the Championship does that have to be changed? Or is this just for Football which seems to make the most noise?
To me, every other sport is easier because every school gets in so the non-public schools would just have their own sectional and the winner of the non-public sectional in each class gets the spot in the super sectional (elite 8).
 

4Afan

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If this system was in place last season then the I'm guessing the State Champions still would have been MC in 8A over Oswego, BR in 7A over either Batavia or Hersey, Fenwick over ESL in 6A as the game was played that night not in a do over, Franny or PC over whatever Public team they eliminated to get there in 5A, and Montini over Rochester in 4A......so no difference outside of Rita who won overwhelmingly over Hersey and Batavia not getting the chance to play BR or at least being named runner up and the same for Franny or PC. In 8A it kind of went like that this pass season as MC beat LA in round 1, but I wouldn't count on either team having too many 4 loss seasons in the upcoming years.

This system will not stop Private schools from winning their respected classes, it will only eliminate a school that may have very well made the Championship game get eliminated 2 rounds sooner. All this does is guarantee at least one public school the chance to win a Championship which last year was the case in all but 2 classes.

If the Public school wins, all is right with the IL football universe, if they lose, the complainers will continue to complain. So would this system really fix anything? I don't think so. It will make the Catholic League side of the Prep Bowl really competitive!
You can't assume changing the system keeps everything the same. MC and BR likely still win, but their path and the paths of non-public teams in other classes would be different.

If, for example, they use the system I think they would, take that for what it's worth, here's how it could have looked last year. In my example there would be a max of 4 non-public teams per class, 4 play in the first round, the two winners play in the second round, and the winner gets the spot in the quarters (elite 8). Open to hear ideas on how this may otherwise be set up.

In 6A for example, there were 4 non-public teams and if were made to play in the first two rounds there's no guarantee Fenwick beats Naz again or if Naz has to go through Fenwick and St. Lawrence in the first two rounds do they still beat Lake Zurich in the quarters?

In 5A, there were only 3 non-publics so would Franny get a bye into the second round while Provi and St. Pat's play in the first round? If Provi were to beat Franny then PR likely makes the final.

Everything very well could have turned out as you said, but once you change the system, there's too many variables.

Nothing to get too excited about yet as this hasn't even gone to a committee vote yet.
 
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Colin2299

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Honesty, it just makes the road easier for the top private school in the class. Guarantee's the elite 8, semifinal and championship game is against public schools.
 
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4Afan

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Honesty, it just makes the road easier for the top private school in the class. Guarantee's the elite 8, semifinal and championship game is against public schools.
Also means they would potentially have to Duke it out with other non-publics in the first two rounds.
 

SiuCubFan8

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Also means they would potentially have to Duke it out with other non-publics in the first two rounds.
It puts all classes in a similar situation smaller classes have with north/south. You don't get a true state championship game or at least as close to it as you can. But it's clear that is not a focus of IHSA or its committee(s).
 
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McCaravan

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Another topic in this was the transfer issue and stopping athletically influenced transfers. On the surface a student can just say it's not about athletics but that would limit them posting on social media in their computer generated new uniform....but I think reducing the transfers will help the current Private vs Public transfers. This is even worse in Basketball btw. But I think a student should be able to transfer after their freshman year, no questions or penalties, you can state the school wasn't a fit, totally understandable and common.

A student may transfer at any if a documented issue such as bullying or harassment was reported and the school wasn't unable to resolve the situation after their attempts. Any student that was a victim of documented and reported criminal activity within the school may leave immediately.

If a student transfers due to a move they must provide proof that their families primary residence was sold and a new residence is being purchased or rented in the new schools district. If a move is the reason for private to private a relocation must be within a certain mileage closer in proximity to the new school.

I hate that people actually falseify this but if a marriage separation or divorce results in the families being seperated into new residences all the court paperwork will have to be submitted.

If a student leaving a private school family claims financial hardship due to unforeseen financial changes and the private school is unable to work out the proper financial aid package or modified payment plan to fit their new budget and proof of this unforeseen financial hardship is provided then the student can transfer to a public school and play immediately but not another private school since finances were the issue.

Outside of that, and feel free to add whatever I forgot, the athlete may transfer but has to sit out a season of the sport they played the previous season. The old school way!! You get the freshman freebie now, which you used to not get and leeway on legitimate documented matters.
This is just my thoughts, you can fully disagree but I think this could really help even though this issue is going on with both privates and publics.
 

Cyclone630

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Oct 24, 2014
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The only rational answer for this proposal (only (1) private in the elite 8) is to address the out pour of negative feedback the IHSA received when they announced the new playoff format. The overwhelming response was that this new format is only going to provide more private schools in the tourney and thus creating more of a private dominance.

IMO - this proposal will only put more egg on the IHSA's face by providing less competitive title games for all to see on TV when the IHSA is on display. Say what you want about privates and their unfair advantages but when there are (2) privates in a title game - most often it's a great game.
At what point did you start thinking the IHSA's main concern should be the TV draw of a state championship game instead of the thousands of athletes playing IHSA sports?
 
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At what point did you start thinking the IHSA's main concern should be the TV draw of a state championship game instead of the thousands of athletes playing IHSA sports?
Probably around the time we felt the need to pay amateur athletes at the level above
 

SiuCubFan8

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At what point did you start thinking the IHSA's main concern should be the TV draw of a state championship game instead of the thousands of athletes playing IHSA sports?
But he didn't mention TV draw....When the eyes are on the IHSA Championship games, TV or in person, they have been crap recently. I see no way this makes that any better. To me it is about trying to get the best two teams in the championship game and this doesn't get closer to that, it gets further away from it. But it is no secret that is not the IHSAs objective.
 

Cyclone630

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But he didn't mention TV draw....When the eyes are on the IHSA Championship games, TV or in person, they have been crap recently. I see no way this makes that any better. To me it is about trying to get the best two teams in the championship game and this doesn't get closer to that, it gets further away from it. But it is no secret that is not the IHSAs objective.
He specifically mentioned TV draw... this proposal will only put more egg on the IHSA's face by providing less competitive title games for all to see on TV when the IHSA is on display.

Is it safe to say that you don't care about 99.5% of IHSA athletes as long as the two schools that do whatever they can (legal or otherwise) to be the top two teams make it to the championship game? Because that is essentially what is happening today, and you seem pissed that the IHSA maybe doesn't want schools doing whatever they can to destroy high school sports, as long as you get to watch what you deem is the best football game.
 

SiuCubFan8

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He specifically mentioned TV draw... this proposal will only put more egg on the IHSA's face by providing less competitive title games for all to see on TV when the IHSA is on display.

Is it safe to say that you don't care about 99.5% of IHSA athletes as long as the two schools that do whatever they can (legal or otherwise) to be the top two teams make it to the championship game? Because that is essentially what is happening today, and you seem pissed that the IHSA maybe doesn't want schools doing whatever they can to destroy high school sports, as long as you get to watch what you deem is the best football game.
1. He did not mention TV draw. I think you know what he meant. You brought the phrase "TV draw" into the conversation. Most consume the championship games on TV, so he was pointing out their big TV production event of the HS FB season is going to be less competitive in this proposal, in his opinion.
2. I am not pissed about anything. I cannot control what the IHSA does or does not do through their member run org. Not gonna get upset about it but I can debate/discuss it like an adult.
3. Maybe IHSA should enforce the rules in place. It's a tail as old as time in athletics or anything really, you give them an inch and they will try to take a mile. That is exactly what is going on. I have no problem with proposals that can tighten up transfers etc. I like the idea of a one time freebie after your FR year or else you sit out a year unless it is a verified legal transfer under IHSA guidelines that are actually enforced.
4. Why shouldn't we want the two best teams to play in the championship game, I fully understand it is easier said than done but shouldn't that be the goal? Not sure how that makes me not care about 99.5% of the athletes. Hell I am probably in the minority that I don't really care about the expanded playoffs. Kids getting another game in even if the season was only 3 wins isn't really an issue to me. Sure I have my thoughts on it but not gonna pound my fist about it like some have.
 
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Cross Bones

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Not sure why there is such a focus on transferring when the real issue is choosing what school one goes to, not when they choose.
 

4Afan

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Another topic in this was the transfer issue and stopping athletically influenced transfers. On the surface a student can just say it's not about athletics but that would limit them posting on social media in their computer generated new uniform....but I think reducing the transfers will help the current Private vs Public transfers. This is even worse in Basketball btw. But I think a student should be able to transfer after their freshman year, no questions or penalties, you can state the school wasn't a fit, totally understandable and common.

A student may transfer at any if a documented issue such as bullying or harassment was reported and the school wasn't unable to resolve the situation after their attempts. Any student that was a victim of documented and reported criminal activity within the school may leave immediately.

If a student transfers due to a move they must provide proof that their families primary residence was sold and a new residence is being purchased or rented in the new schools district. If a move is the reason for private to private a relocation must be within a certain mileage closer in proximity to the new school.

I hate that people actually falseify this but if a marriage separation or divorce results in the families being seperated into new residences all the court paperwork will have to be submitted.

If a student leaving a private school family claims financial hardship due to unforeseen financial changes and the private school is unable to work out the proper financial aid package or modified payment plan to fit their new budget and proof of this unforeseen financial hardship is provided then the student can transfer to a public school and play immediately but not another private school since finances were the issue.

Outside of that, and feel free to add whatever I forgot, the athlete may transfer but has to sit out a season of the sport they played the previous season. The old school way!! You get the freshman freebie now, which you used to not get and leeway on legitimate documented matters.
This is just my thoughts, you can fully disagree but I think this could really help even though this issue is going on with both privates and publics.
All of these transfer exceptions would require oversight, and while I believe all transfers should be investigated, the IHSA doesn't have the resources and also doesn't appear to care.

I have a simple solution, students attend the public HS for the district that they live within for 4 years. Should a family decide they want their child to attend a private school, the student and family do their research and decide on the school that is the best fit within the determined 30 mile radius and attend that school for 4 years. BOOM, fixed it.
 
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johnndoe

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If this format only lasts for (1) year the amount of blow back the IHSA is going to receive will be intense. Schools needed to scramble for a week 1 game this year and will need to scramble next year to reverse it.

Maybe they should stop making such short sided decisions.
IMHO, already Week 0 Friday as early as August 14th has a bad feel. I sense a Week 10 with 96 qualifying teams sitting at home could be similar. One and done for this format more likely than not?
 

4Afan

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IMHO, already Week 0 Friday as early as August 14th has a bad feel. I sense a Week 10 with 96 qualifying teams sitting at home could be similar. One and done for this format more likely than not?
I hope it's one and done, but at that stage in the season I bet there's a lot of teams that will appreciate the bye week.
 
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McCaravan

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All of these transfer exceptions would require oversight, and while I believe all transfers should be investigated, the IHSA doesn't have the resources and also doesn't appear to care.

I have a simple solution, students attend the public HS for the district that they live within for 4 years. Should a family decide they want their child to attend a private school, the student and family do their research and decide on the school that is the best fit within the determined 30 mile radius and attend that school for 4 years. BOOM, fixed it.
I actually don't disagree with you but I do believe that after or during your Freshman year you should be able to move if the school was not a fit for whatever reasons. Mistakes do get made. And unforeseen lifestyle changes do occur which causes finances to change or families having to actually move, not keep their homes and rent a studio apartment in that district. The oversight on these issues or something criminal shouldn't be very in depth (My child was jumped or a victim of a crime involving students at his school, here is the Police Report, we are transferring him/her). All the issues I cited in my above post can be verified through family submitting paperwork. If they need to hire some more people at the IHSA I know plenty recent College grads looking for work and recent retired individuals looking to fill the hours 😉.

Scams will always occur but at least don't make it so easy. And some of you might say let them transfer all they want it's their life and I can't disagree with that but in solutions on how to curb schools stockpiling talent instead of splitting Public's and Privates this is one of the issues that needs to be addressed IMO.
 

Cross Bones

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Then separation is the only solution, no?
It may be now. I dont think it always was. I think it takes some self reflection and honesty to fix because it has to be done on the individual school level. But as long as easy championships are the goal... that self reflection and honesty is unlikely.
 

Colin2299

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He specifically mentioned TV draw... this proposal will only put more egg on the IHSA's face by providing less competitive title games for all to see on TV when the IHSA is on display.

Is it safe to say that you don't care about 99.5% of IHSA athletes as long as the two schools that do whatever they can (legal or otherwise) to be the top two teams make it to the championship game? Because that is essentially what is happening today, and you seem pissed that the IHSA maybe doesn't want schools doing whatever they can to destroy high school sports, as long as you get to watch what you deem is the best football game.
I did not mention TV draw nor do care one bit about it. No one does. IHSA title games will always have terrible ratings because 99% of the state could care less about HS football the day after Thanksgiving.

My point was that the IHSA is on display for the title games and if the product sucks (bad title games) it gets people complaining (led by Antioch’s tool of a DC).

My best example is 2024 when the uproar was at its loudest. Montini and DePaul won state titles with arguably their easiest win being the title game.

If it would have been on display when all eyes are on the IHSA to turn your tv on and watch a title game of Byron vs Montini (14-13 Montini win in round 2) the postgame narrative would have been much different than a Montini running clock over Monticello.

In similar fashion, if DePaul would have played Coal City in the title (21-14 semi’s) instead of the running clock they put on Mt. Zion…
 
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