Freestyle musings

newguy123

All-Conference
Feb 5, 2020
1,443
2,487
113
I'm not a freestyle dummy by any means but my mind is just wandering and I think I finally have figured out the unifying theme of why freestyle feels so off to me. I see many reasons why freestyle is anti-offense. Or maybe I should say it rewards defense or conservatism or whatever. Anyways I'm not trying to convince anybody, just taking a brain break during work lol

1. Step out points. Once near the edge, athletes either don't want to wrestle for fear of giving up a point, or they switch tactics and start trying to push their opponent out. Result, less offense.
2. Exposure points. You give up points when scrambling or taking any shot that is not conservative. This limits the types of shots you can take, and you're punished when scrambling. Result, less offense.
3. Passivity. One athlete goes on the clock, and it is KNOWN that they will attempt offense in that time period. Their opponent adopts an ultra-defensive mindset. Result, less offense. Athletes also game it by being ultra defensive in the first period, intentionally going on the clock first, being ultra defensive in the second period and forcing the ref to put their opponent on the clock second, then winning the match 1-1 on criteria. Result, less offense.
4. Chained gut wrench/trap arm/leg lace. Set up one good hold and the match is over. Unless there's a golden opportunity, everybody goes for the same three holds. Athlete on bottom does nothing but become a turtle. Result, less offense.
5. Par terre restarts. Athletes get around 4-10 seconds before the ref restarts them. Not nearly enough time to set up anything that isn't a gut/trap/lace. Result, less offense.
6. Six minute matches. Matches end faster. Result, less (time for) offense.
7. Ten point tech fall. Matches end faster from points and also the ability to chain together turns. Result, less offense.
8. No athlete choice. Freestyle is wrestled 95% in neutral. Links us back to several above points. Result, less offense.

I would love to watch matches with a freestyle enthusiast. Someone that LOVES the style and could help me appreciate the nuances that I'm surely missing.
 

OAMC99

All-Conference
Mar 25, 2002
4,777
1,622
113
I'm not a freestyle dummy by any means but my mind is just wandering and I think I finally have figured out the unifying theme of why freestyle feels so off to me. I see many reasons why freestyle is anti-offense. Or maybe I should say it rewards defense or conservatism or whatever. Anyways I'm not trying to convince anybody, just taking a brain break during work lol

1. Step out points. Once near the edge, athletes either don't want to wrestle for fear of giving up a point, or they switch tactics and start trying to push their opponent out. Result, less offense.
2. Exposure points. You give up points when scrambling or taking any shot that is not conservative. This limits the types of shots you can take, and you're punished when scrambling. Result, less offense.
3. Passivity. One athlete goes on the clock, and it is KNOWN that they will attempt offense in that time period. Their opponent adopts an ultra-defensive mindset. Result, less offense. Athletes also game it by being ultra defensive in the first period, intentionally going on the clock first, being ultra defensive in the second period and forcing the ref to put their opponent on the clock second, then winning the match 1-1 on criteria. Result, less offense.
4. Chained gut wrench/trap arm/leg lace. Set up one good hold and the match is over. Unless there's a golden opportunity, everybody goes for the same three holds. Athlete on bottom does nothing but become a turtle. Result, less offense.
5. Par terre restarts. Athletes get around 4-10 seconds before the ref restarts them. Not nearly enough time to set up anything that isn't a gut/trap/lace. Result, less offense.
6. Six minute matches. Matches end faster. Result, less (time for) offense.
7. Ten point tech fall. Matches end faster from points and also the ability to chain together turns. Result, less offense.
8. No athlete choice. Freestyle is wrestled 95% in neutral. Links us back to several above points. Result, less offense.

I would love to watch matches with a freestyle enthusiast. Someone that LOVES the style and could help me appreciate the nuances that I'm surely missing.
I really don't like it at all. For all of the excellent reasons you lined out above. Of course this could just be from wrestling and watching Folkstyle my entire life. I like the mat wrestling, to me that is what wrestling is. Going back to the Cave Man days. It's where two people always end up - on the mat/ground. What do you do from there? How do you win? Riding establishes control of your opponent - they can't get away. Pinning is the ultimate show of dominance to force someone against their will to their back in their most vulnerable state.
 
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okokzach

All-Conference
Dec 18, 2024
958
2,492
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It doesn't sit right with me that one guy can take all the risk trying to score while the other guy sits in the middle and it's the offensive wrestler who gets penalized with passivity calls.
 

Cowboy1989

All-Conference
Dec 1, 2009
718
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I saw lots of ridiculous passivity calls. Plotts match comes to mind - he took tons of shots in the finals, his opponent took one and Plott gets called for passivity. Taylor was pissed too. That's just one of many times I thought the refs were crazy for calling the aggressor for passivity.
 
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newguy123

All-Conference
Feb 5, 2020
1,443
2,487
113
It doesn't sit right with me that one guy can take all the risk trying to score while the other guy sits in the middle and it's the offensive wrestler who gets penalized with passivity calls.
Positioning is rewarded moreso than offense. Again, the result is less offense. You park yourself in the center and defend.
 
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Cowboy1989

All-Conference
Dec 1, 2009
718
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I don't like that they reward a wrestler who holds the center of the mat without executing a takedown, back exposure, reversal, escape... position is already inherently rewarded in wrestler. The whole idea of wrestling is to gain a better position than your opponent, so you can execute a scoring move on him and get rewarded for the move. Rewarding them for holding the center circle is completely artificial and boring, boring, boring. Nobody wants to watch that crap, especially a casual fan - that is what kills wrestling.
 

newguy123

All-Conference
Feb 5, 2020
1,443
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Our guys need to do all restarts in the center of the circle. I noticed with the US Open that restarts would often have one guy in the center, one guy well outside the center. Refs did not care about placement of athletes when they restarted the action. Well guess what the advantage is already in place for the guy that chose to restart in the center.
 

Cowboy1989

All-Conference
Dec 1, 2009
718
1,849
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Our guys need to do all restarts in the center of the circle. I noticed with the US Open that restarts would often have one guy in the center, one guy well outside the center. Refs did not care about placement of athletes when they restarted the action. Well guess what the advantage is already in place for the guy that chose to restart in the center.
Ross gave Merrill an advantage starting well outside the center circle
 

newguy123

All-Conference
Feb 5, 2020
1,443
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Happens a lot. Why be a turd and call a guy out!
lol I was going to say, just watch a tourney and you’ll see it, then you can’t unsee it

it’s not wrong as per rules but rules do favor holding and defending center
 
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alephpoke

Junior
May 16, 2023
110
367
58
The worst example I can remember is when Jordan Oliver lost in the semis of the in Olympic qualification tourney to Ghadziev of Poland. The dude was massive for 65kg, did not move from center, and I believe got one push out and two shot clock points to win 3-2 to make the Olympics. I actually feel like most of the time the freestyle take on stalling works out but that match will turn you into a hater.
 
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