Basketball Jamichael Davis set to return next seasom

seansherm

Heisman
Feb 20, 2009
14,166
15,124
113
Pass first? He was 559 th in assits last year? He scored double digit in blow out losses. Late buckets were just given away. Not one guy on the roster was Big ten quality.

someone has to shoot so bad players putting up numbers means nothing.

I hope JMike coaches here one day but a big ten pg he is not!
He's not the most talented, for sure, but four years of playing in the Big Ten makes him a Big Ten point guard.
559th? He was 1250th in minutes played and played on a team where the off guard dribbled 70% of the clock looking for his opening and the rest of the team doesn't shoot worth anything.
 

seansherm

Heisman
Feb 20, 2009
14,166
15,124
113
No and a ridiculous take! JMike has been here 3 years and has played w Cliff and with out Cliff. He has played w two lottery picks . He has played w your boy TF and has yet to make the offense or defense better.

if your goal is someone small who can get the ball across half court but will not create, finish at the rim and struggles to shoot. Then yes clear as day
Haha, played w two lottery picks. The team was just along for the ride next to two high usage guys, one of which played lead ball handler.
 

RUDivision

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He's not the most talented, for sure, but four years of playing in the Big Ten makes him a Big Ten point guard.
559th? He was 1250th in minutes played and played on a team where the off guard dribbled 70% of the clock looking for his opening and the rest of the team doesn't shoot worth anything.
Start next year w TF and JMike as your starting back court and you have the worst maybe second worst backcourt in the big
 

RAC93

All-Conference
Aug 11, 2023
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It would be below average, no doubt. Don't think the plan is for JMike to be a starter.
JMike is fine with a role off the bench, not gonna hate on him. But, if he’s a starter, that’s a whole different story. In such a critical season for Pike to turn this program around after the past 3 seasons, I assumed we were bringing in 3-4 starters to upgrade this roster. Other than TF, I don’t see Big 10 starters on this roster yet in order for us to reach a Big 10 competitive level that gets Pike off the hot seat.
 

MCKnight

All-Conference
Oct 25, 2012
2,248
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113
Current roster is Ware Davis and Duarte, hope that is less thank 500K of our budget, or we did things wrong

assume, Francis, Mark, Powers, and Buchanan are announced back next. That’s 2 mil?

leaves us about 5 mil left for a front court… and at least one starting level center will be 2-3 mil.

its going to be an underwhelming roster, with likely no major power 4 player brought in. Sad
 
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bac2therac

Hall of Famer
Jul 30, 2001
247,522
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JMike is fine with a role off the bench, not gonna hate on him. But, if he’s a starter, that’s a whole different story. In such a critical season for Pike to turn this program around after the past 3 seasons, I assumed we were bringing in 3-4 starters to upgrade this roster. Other than TF, I don’t see Big 10 starters on this roster yet in order for us to reach a Big 10 competitive level that gets Pike off the hot seat.
This. J mike is a 7th 8th man off the bench if we are serious aboit competing
 

Bob Chaewsky_rivals

All-Conference
Dec 31, 2008
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He is a good program guy but not a power 4 player unless treated like a walk in player. He was surrounded last year with the 2nd and 5 the pick in the draft and was bad.

Pike failing in the portal early
Hard to judge anyone on that team other than Dylan and Ace. They had the ball in their hand 70% of the time, and looked to score most of that time.
 

Bob Chaewsky_rivals

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Dec 31, 2008
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No and a ridiculous take! JMike has been here 3 years and has played w Cliff and with out Cliff. He has played w two lottery picks . He has played w your boy TF and has yet to make the offense or defense better.

if your goal is someone small who can get the ball across half court but will not create, finish at the rim and struggles to shoot. Then yes clear as day
Not making our offense or defense better? What number are you using for that?
 

PSAL_Hoops

Heisman
Feb 18, 2008
13,232
12,553
78
this only works if he's no more than the 3rd guard off bench, preferably the 4th guard.

if he is the lead guard again there is no point to watch the team next season

This statement would accurately describe our predicament if we fail to land a center and a power forward to upgrade / replace Ogbole and Grant. If we don’t upgrade those positions then the season will be over before it starts.

We don’t have a great backcourt, but what your describing is an exaggeration. J Mike individually was far from the problem is season. He’s not a rock star but there’s no planet in the world we would land 2 PGs as good as him in the portal so he’s someone you absolutely want to stay. Not turning the ball over matters.
 

PSAL_Hoops

Heisman
Feb 18, 2008
13,232
12,553
78
This. J mike is a 7th 8th man off the bench if we are serious aboit competing

Forget ranking it this way. Only a handful of teams have unlimited budgets to be able to do this. Minutes will be dictated by match ups and position needs on a game by game basis not some rank order of talent.

J Mike could absolutely be on the floor for his same 26 mpg and not hurt us if we had a combination of 4 significantly better players on the court with him. That’s the way we have to think about it. We don’t have the money to drastically upgrade everything.

How would that play out? The blueprint has to involve buying a center and a PF. No purchase of established 4 and 5 means we’re going to suck again. Full stop. Landing these things is far from a given, but if we do, the front court (4-5) is instantly upgraded a lot because the bar for significant improvement is very low.

Now look at the other positions to play alongside J Mike’s natural position at the 1. At the 2 this year we had Francis/Powers/ Zrno. I think there’s good reason to hope Wooten can help more than Zrno. There’s also at least reason to hope TF and Powers would improve with another offseason in our system and playing with a better front court. While the 2 spot wouldn’t project to be drastically better if this is what we run with, but it would project to be at least slightly improved and there’d be a chance of more than this.

Now look at the 3. I don’t understand the focus on small guards because this is a spot I personally think we could get much better value in the portal as our 3rd impact for our addition than at PG. We often played a guard in this spot because we no true wing and everyone stunk here on D except Buchanan and he ended up sliding around 3-5 because our frontcourt was a disaster. Buchanan will likely end up doing the same this season and serving as a filler back up for multiple positions and ultimately netting 23 or so minutes in this role (the back ups are trending to be weak which may not be a bad thing if it means we’re planning to pony up for our main rotation guys). I want a Caleb type added to the team for this spot for our 3rd major “purchase”. Someone Pike has hand picked as a lockdown defender with length and some handling skills but inefficient scoring metrics pulling down the price tag. Not necessarily a starter on their previous team. Doesn’t matter. Something like this would be a major upgrade over what we played at the 3 this year. How massive cannot be overstated. We got no help D whatsoever from the 3-4 spot. Nobody shot the ball well anyway so there’s not much to trade off.

Add these things and in my opinion we’re a lot better even if J Mike were to play an identical role. To your point - if we bring Ogbole back to start and add a Buchanan level PF to replace Grant and round out the roster that way we are royally screwed. I’m just saying - the possibility of J Mike playing significant minutes is not a catastrophe scenario - really depends who he’s surrounded with.
 
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seansherm

Heisman
Feb 20, 2009
14,166
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Forget ranking it this way. Only a handful of teams have unlimited budgets to be able to do this. Minutes will be dictated by match ups and position needs on a game by game basis not some rank order of talent.

J Mike could absolutely be on the floor for his same 26 mpg and not hurt us if we had a combination of 4 significantly better players on the court with him. That’s the way we have to think about it. We don’t have the money to drastically upgrade everything.

How would that play out? The blueprint has to involve buying a center and a PF. No purchase of established 4 and 5 means we’re going to suck again. Full stop. Landing these things is far from a given, but if we do, the front court (4-5) is instantly upgraded a lot because the bar for significant improvement is very low.

Now look at the other positions to play alongside J Mike’s natural position at the 1. At the 2 this year we had Francis/Powers/ Zrno. I think there’s good reason to hope Wooten can help more than Zrno. There’s also at least reason to hope TF and Powers would improve with another offseason in our system and playing with a better front court. While the 2 spot wouldn’t project to be drastically better if this is what we run with, but it would project to be at least slightly improved and there’d be a chance of more than this.

Now look at the 3. I don’t understand the focus on small guards because this is a spot I personally think we could get much better value in the portal as our 3rd impact for our addition than at PG. We often played a guard in this spot because we no true wing and everyone stunk here on D except Buchanan and he ended up sliding around 3-5 because our frontcourt was a disaster. Buchanan will likely end up doing the same this season and serving as a filler back up for multiple positions and ultimately netting 23 or so minutes in this role (the back ups are trending to be weak which may not be a bad thing if it means we’re planning to pony up for our main rotation guys). I want a Caleb type added to the team for this spot for our 3rd major “purchase”. Someone Pike has hand picked as a lockdown defender with length and some handling skills but inefficient scoring metrics pulling down the price tag. Not necessarily a starter on their previous team. Doesn’t matter. Something like this would be a major upgrade over what we played at the 3 this year. How massive cannot be overstated. We got no help D whatsoever from the 3-4 spot. Nobody shot the ball well anyway so there’s not much to trade off.

Add these things and in my opinion we’re a lot better even if J Mike were to play an identical role. To your point - if we bring Ogbole back to start and add a Buchanan level PF to replace Grant and round out the roster that way we are royally screwed. I’m just saying - the possibility of J Mike playing significant minutes is not a catastrophe scenario - really depends who he’s surrounded with.
If guys like Hines are looking for $5M, and 3 point a game guys over $1M, I'm not seeing 3 big additions that are actually talented. The front court spots may cost 2/3rd of our $.
 

PSAL_Hoops

Heisman
Feb 18, 2008
13,232
12,553
78
If guys like Hines are looking for $5M, and 3 point a game guys over $1M, I'm not seeing 3 big additions that are actually talented. The front court spots may cost 2/3rd of our $.

It won’t be 3 perceived “big” additions. It will be 2. Go back and pull up Caleb’s sophomore stats. Most of our fans would HATE that and complain all season about it but that’s the type of kid I’m hoping for for addition number 3. 20 or so mpg. Horrible efficiency but know for D and possesses complementary skills like ball handling (while not a PG). Caleb wouldn’t have cost much more than Powers back then. Maybe 800k if that. Could be more like 700k. Not more than that.

Also - that kid won’t get a million unless he’s an up and coming PG. This is all about supply and demand. SGs, thrasher guards and wings (outside of the most efficient ones) will be the cheapest positions. More of them.

Let me add - if we were hypothetically keeping Powers, Tariq, J Mike, Lino and Buchanan - hopefully it’s only for a combined cost of $3.5 M and then if we’re shelling out $5 M total for the 4 and the 5 (more for the 5), that would mean 1.5M to spend on the other 6 spots. Ware and the kid from NMS have to be costing close to nothing. Wooten is a frosh. I really doubt those 3 combined are getting more that 350k or so combined. After filling 10 spots hopefully we’d have over a million (ideally as close to $1.5M as possible to work with in filling the last couple spots. One would be the Caleb type and the other two more long shots in the “very cheap category”. That’s what we have to do. If Lino leaves then another guard. But that’s it.

If Zinn doesn’t have 10M she can’t really blame the coach. 7-8M is the equivalent of what we had last year with inflation.
 
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Jerseylegends

All-Conference
Mar 15, 2023
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Players get better over the years, especially hard workers like I'm assuming jmike is. He has gotten better each year and really started to come on towards the end of this year. I'm anticipating another jump, however either him or Francis have to come off the bench if this is going to be a serious team..
 

RedTeamUpstream94

All-American
Jan 15, 2021
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No and a ridiculous take! JMike has been here 3 years and has played w Cliff and with out Cliff. He has played w two lottery picks . He has played w your boy TF and has yet to make the offense or defense better.

if your goal is someone small who can get the ball across half court but will not create, finish at the rim and struggles to shoot. Then yes clear as day

think many are making too much of this

for the life of me I can’t understand why anyone would have a problem with keeping Davis - a solid veteran guard that you can trust with the ball under pressure

Literally not one person on here is saying he’s a great player. And I agree with those on here that say he’s a marginal Big10 player at best.

but for THIS team right now, with the huge needs we have and the limited funding keeping Davis is a no brainer right now

obviously- all of the above goes out the window if he got some ridiculous payday. But I think we are all assuming he was paid a sensible amount (leaving $$$ for other needs).

so seriously - what’s the problem ?
 

NightKnight

All-Conference
Jul 21, 2008
3,213
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so seriously - what’s the problem ?
Keeping a player who struggles to play on the B1G level means that we will not be replacing him with someone who might be better. Replacing a player like Davis should be easy because even if the guy you take a flyer on is terrible you were not risking that much anyway. Retaining marginal players takes a load off Pike, but it begins to ensure continuing dismal results. Keep a few guys sure, but this is a low-effort response.
 

RUDivision

All-Conference
Jan 6, 2023
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think many are making too much of this

for the life of me I can’t understand why anyone would have a problem with keeping Davis - a solid veteran guard that you can trust with the ball under pressure

Literally not one person on here is saying he’s a great player. And I agree with those on here that say he’s a marginal Big10 player at best.

but for THIS team right now, with the huge needs we have and the limited funding keeping Davis is a no brainer right now

obviously- all of the above goes out the window if he got some ridiculous payday. But I think we are all assuming he was paid a sensible amount (leaving $$$ for other needs).

so seriously - what’s the problem ?
Trust under pressure to do what?
Great young man and happy he will finish here but he is not a Big Ten level player.
 
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seansherm

Heisman
Feb 20, 2009
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It won’t be 3 perceived “big” additions. It will be 2. Go back and pull up Caleb’s sophomore stats. Most of our fans would HATE that and complain all season about it but that’s the type of kid I’m hoping for for addition number 3. 20 or so mpg. Horrible efficiency but know for D and possesses complementary skills like ball handling (while not a PG). Caleb wouldn’t have cost much more than Powers back then. Maybe 800k if that. Could be more like 700k. Not more than that.

Also - that kid won’t get a million unless he’s an up and coming PG. This is all about supply and demand. SGs, thrasher guards and wings (outside of the most efficient ones) will be the cheapest positions. More of them.

Let me add - if we were hypothetically keeping Powers, Tariq, J Mike, Lino and Buchanan - hopefully it’s only for a combined cost of $3.5 M and then if we’re shelling out $5 M total for the 4 and the 5 (more for the 5), that would mean 1.5M to spend on the other 6 spots. Ware and the kid from NMS have to be costing close to nothing. Wooten is a frosh. I really doubt those 3 combined are getting more that 350k or so combined. After filling 10 spots hopefully we’d have over a million (ideally as close to $1.5M as possible to work with in filling the last couple spots. One would be the Caleb type and the other two more long shots in the “very cheap category”. That’s what we have to do. If Lino leaves then another guard. But that’s it.

If Zinn doesn’t have 10M she can’t really blame the coach. 7-8M is the equivalent of what we had last year with inflation.
My point is that Caleb level you want is more likely pick up #2 than 3. That's why that guy needs to be a big. A 4 and a 5 are musts. Everything else is going to be pot luck. Kids aren't going to be lined up to come to a losing program and our $ isn't going to go as far as people think. Hope I'm wrong.

We've heard anything from 100k to 500k for the NMSU kid, so who knows.
 

bac2therac

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Keeping a player who struggles to play on the B1G level means that we will not be replacing him with someone who might be better. Replacing a player like Davis should be easy because even if the guy you take a flyer on is terrible you were not risking that much anyway. Retaining marginal players takes a load off Pike, but it begins to ensure continuing dismal results. Keep a few guys sure, but this is a low-effort response.
This
 

RedTeamUpstream94

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Trust under pressure to do what?
Great young man and happy he will finish here but he is not a Big Ten level player.

Um when the other team is applying defensive pressure - like a press - jmike can bring the ball up

this terminology needed to be explained to you ?
 

RutgersClassof2004

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This. J mike is a 7th 8th man off the bench if we are serious aboit competing
Agreed. He started playing a little better toward end of season, but let's all be honest. First 80% of season, as a captain, he was awful. At least he's not driving and getting stuffed all the time anymore. His shooting a little better. But as you said, if you're serious about competing, he ain't it.
 

seansherm

Heisman
Feb 20, 2009
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He wasn't a starter at the end of the season, he's not being brought back to be a starter next year. He's our 4th or 5th guard.
 

Mholinko

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Bringing jmike back as 1st or 2nd guard off bench is a fine move… people vastly overrating how good bench guards are for team we’re trying to reach the level of which is a bubble ncaa tournament team

I think everyone bashing this move is comparing jmike to bench guards for teams they just watched in the final 4

we’re trying to get to the SMU, Ohio state, Villanova, Georgia levels
 

Mr. Magoo1

Heisman
Nov 15, 2001
15,459
16,305
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Keeping a player who struggles to play on the B1G level means that we will not be replacing him with someone who might be better. Replacing a player like Davis should be easy because even if the guy you take a flyer on is terrible you were not risking that much anyway. Retaining marginal players takes a load off Pike, but it begins to ensure continuing dismal results. Keep a few guys sure, but this is a low-effort response.

He’s praying everyone else stays so he can pick up a couple of NEC or MAAC retreads and call it a day. He’s certainly not going to outwork anyone and his assistant coaches are probably out of relatives and friends.
 
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RedTeamUpstream94

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but yes he can dribble the ball across half court.

…and currently we don’t have too many other players that can do that!

as psal said above “not turning the ball over matters.”

as I said above - assuming we didn’t overpay him - it’s a no brainer

considering our needs - all over the roster - and with limited funds - if Davis came back for reasonable $ - I cannot fathom what the problem is
 
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PSAL_Hoops

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Feb 18, 2008
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I thought you might mean missing FT late costing us the MSU pressure.

but yes he can dribble the ball across half court.

This is why you can’t be taken seriously. Just because he’s not a top all around guard doesn’t mean you need to make it out like he’s awful at things he’s good at. His TO rate is very low - well above average ball control for a PG.
 
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RUDivision

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This is why you can’t be taken seriously. Just because he’s not a top all around guard doesn’t mean you need to make it out like he’s awful at things he’s good at. His TO rate is very low - well above average ball control for a PG.
A PG who doesn’t create and avg 2 assists a game. OFC his ratio is good because he doesn’t have to do anything with it. Dribble the ball up and hand it off.

the difference between analytics
on a page amd actual game impact.
 

PSAL_Hoops

Heisman
Feb 18, 2008
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A PG who doesn’t create and avg 2 assists a game. OFC his ratio is good because he doesn’t have to do anything with it. Dribble the ball up and hand it off.

the difference between analytics
on a page amd actual game impact.
Again - I’m not disagreeing that others are better than him at a variety of important skills.

However, in a game situation where the goal is to protect the ball and close out a win, he was the best option to have the ball in his hands by far, and arguably the previous year too. Yes - you read it right. Frosh Dylan Harper was far more prone to getting his pocket picked than J Mike (including our very first look at him where it cost him the win in the McDonald all American game). Again - only one skill. But stop trying to challenge THAT one thing.
 

ScarletJocko

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A PG who doesn’t create and avg 2 assists a game. OFC his ratio is good because he doesn’t have to do anything with it. Dribble the ball up and hand it off.

the difference between analytics
on a page amd actual game impact.
23 Assists and 4 turnovers over his last 9 games. That is a PG that takes care of the ball. Its okay to admit the occasional positive
 

RUDivision

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23 Assists and 4 turnovers over his last 9 games. That is a PG that takes care of the ball. Its okay to admit the occasional positive
2 assists game? JMike has his moments every year. Playing as many mins as he does there will be moments. The issue is consistency!

Yes, last games are good! I like the young man .
 
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PSAL_Hoops

Heisman
Feb 18, 2008
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2 assists game? JMike has his moments every year. Playing as many mins as he does there will be moments. The issue is consistency!

Yes, last games are good! I like the young man .

You do know that if the guy you make a good pass to doesn’t hit the shot, you don’t get credit for the assist, right? I’m not trying to say he’s great, but come on man. We had no frontcourt, and J Mike himself led the team in 3 point shooting. Tariq shot the second highest rate from 3, and he’s more comfortable shooting off the dribble (from both 2 and 3). How was anyone on the team supposed to collect a ton of assists? He had one less assist per 40 than Dylan Harper had and DH sure had better offensive players to work with.
 

Mholinko

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The back court was the least of our issues last year and bringing back jmike powers mark and Francis would be fine IF the fill out 3-4-5 which is looking problematic right now

most of our scoring down the stretch came from the guard positions

when you have no paint threat assists are lower, contested jumpers are higher, and rebounding for kick outs is dreadful