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Is Third The New First? - The "What Was PJ Duke Thinking?" Edition

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FourCornersCowboy

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The only issue I have and maybe it’s a chicken and egg concept, but I don’t think the 3 point takedown lead to more zero or one take down matches. Defense and scrambling have improved greatly and “reaction time” has helped scrambling wrestling as well.
 
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Old Number Nine

Old Number Nine

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Great article! I have no way to know if this is true or not but I would like to know how much you think (know?) the three point takedown and the four point nearfall has affected this phenomenon.

I'm old-school when it comes to scoring and I believe that the primary goal in wrestling is, and should be, the Pin and anything that lessons the value of, and threw that, the pursuit of a Fall by wrestlers is a negative to the sport.

I have never liked the Tech-Fall as it eliminates a wrestlers chance to make a comeback, however small (see Rohn vs Lambrecht 2002). Three point takedowns and Four point Nearfalls only hasten the end of a match by a Tech.

I believe cheap tilts (no Pin jeopardy) should be worth two and with only three point when there is a real, concrete chance at a Fall.

I know most people like scoring, as do I (no one has scored more points than my favorite wrestler Mike Sheets (is this true?)) but Pin-Falls are the most exciting thing in wrestling.
 
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Wrestleknownothing

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Old Number Nine said:
Great article! I have no way to know if this is true or not but I would like to know how much you think (know?) the three point takedown and the four point nearfall has affected this phenomenon.

I'm old-school when it comes to scoring and I believe that the primary goal in wrestling is, and should be, the Pin and anything that lessons the value of, and threw that, the pursuit of a Fall by wrestlers is a negative to the sport.

I have never liked the Tech-Fall as it eliminates a wrestlers chance to make a comeback, however small (see Rohn vs Lambrecht 2002). Three point takedowns and Four point Nearfalls only hasten the end of a match by a Tech.

I believe cheap tilts (no Pin jeopardy) should be worth two and with only three point when there is a real, concrete chance at a Fall.

I know most people like scoring, as do I (no one has scored more points than my favorite wrestler Mike Sheets (is this true?)) but Pin-Falls are the most exciting thing in wrestling.
Click to expand...
I have another article that discusses the 3-point TD:

wrestling.guru

The 3 Point Takedown - Folkstyle's Sea Change | Wrestling.Guru

The year was 2023 and there was a plague upon the land of folkstyle wrestling. Scoring at the NCAA tournament was down - a lot. After hitting a near-term pe ...
wrestling.guru wrestling.guru

As for Mike Sheets. If you mean match points it is real hard to tell as they are not recorded for matches that end with a pin. The leader there is Pat Smith with 268 career match points at NCAA's, followed by Barry Davis at 267. As a funny footnote the leader for average match points is Alabama's Steve Dildine who won his first round match 27-3, and was never heard from again.
 
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Wrestleknownothing

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FourCornersCowboy said:
The only issue I have and maybe it’s a chicken and egg concept, but I don’t think the 3 point takedown lead to more zero or one take down matches. Defense and scrambling have improved greatly and “reaction time” has helped scrambling wrestling as well.
Click to expand...
My counterpoint relies solely on timing rather than proof. A noticeable jump in 0 and 1 TD matches happened when the 3-point TD happened, and the impact was universal. Defensive improvements happen over time and with some wrestlers not others. While I have no doubt that improved defense and scrambling played a roll, I think the real culprit was strategy adjustments due the risk/reward imbalance introduced by the 3-point TD.
 
glorycowboy

glorycowboy

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"First place finishers tend to have higher seeds" Not in case of Robideau vs PJ. Robideau had to go through 1,2,4. Highest seed PJ wrestled in the tournament was 5. Thats another reason PJ got more points, he faced inferior competition. Even though this case is rare, proper handling must be done to avoid this in future.
 
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Wrestleknownothing

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glorycowboy said:
"First place finishers tend to have higher seeds" Not in case of Robideau vs PJ. Robideau had to go through 1,2,4. Highest seed PJ wrestled in the tournament was 5. Thats another reason PJ got more points, he faced inferior competition. Even though this case is rare, proper handling must be done to avoid this in future.
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Robideau also had #21 and #28. He majors one or both and he takes care of the situation on his own. Robideau was as much an outlier on the low scoring side as Duke was on the high scoring side.
 
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glorycowboy

glorycowboy

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Or we fix the scoring system to not incentivize losing and coming third to face worst opponents, than winning and coming first. Plainly just increase first and second place points by few. Make it so that even with bonus points, the third placed cant overtake second place.
 
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Wrestleknownothing

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glorycowboy said:
Or we fix the scoring system to not incentivize losing and coming third to face worst opponents, than winning and coming first. Plainly just increase first and second place points by few. Make it so that even with bonus points, the third placed cant overtake second place.
Click to expand...
My challenge to you is to find a single wrestler who was incentivized to lose at the NCAA tournament. This idea that wrestlers are losing in response to stimuli is silly.
 
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glorycowboy

glorycowboy

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I don't care about "It hasn't happened" though. Has a returning Olympic gold medalist has ever lost in NCAA tournament before last year? No. This is a loophole. It shouldn't be possible on theory and needs to be patched.
 
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