Completely agree but its a start. And with the younger Kenny and Bachmann brothers started for 28 its another good start hopefully just keep it going. I also think that the portal was the shiny new toy so to speak so its hard not to jump at it like we know the end result of a jacori teemer but if he was gonna leave asu at the time I dont think alot of schools would of said nobut it will take more than the 27 and 28 classes. Those classes are the yearly norm for PSU and now OSU. You can't get 3 guys in a four year period and compete now.
Portal April 1st
- Thread starter sdvike
- Start date
Coaching absolutely matters and Tom hasn't been good enough there either. His recruiting has been bad and his ability to coach people to the promised land not much better. He is very average with match game planning and adjustments.
Rankings are one thing, being able to identify the true elite of the elite is proving to be something Cael/Casey/Cody and now DT are very very good at, and our staff well, not as much.
I think that's s big reason why Iowa's top 10s tend to max out at high AA, and theirs turn into multiple time champs. They're simply better at identifying the truly elite AND recruiting them to their school(s).
Aside from the can't miss types like Spencer and Jax, its clearly difficult for the rankings to reflect the "projectability" of college success enough, at least not to the level the psu staff clearly is able to.
I answered these debates long ago. 83% recruiting, 17% pure coaching. Which means 100% on the coach (I can show my math formula if needed) . Move on boys and girls.
Facts? When were they ever important in the cesspool? But anyhow...you want facts? Here's some facts: Robideau was 19th on Flo's 2025 HS P4P and PJ Duke was 1st, yet you sound like you knew Robideau was going to beat Duke, despite the fact that most wrestling guru's felt Duke was a big favorite. And oh by the way a couple weeks prior, Robideau lost to Larkin in the B12 championships. But despite those facts, you just knew Robideau would win it all? Please! You need to get a grip. Oh, and Sergio Vega was 44th on the 2025 HS big board, so of course you again knew that he would jump from 44th on the 2025 HS big board to 2026 NCAA champion. Or maybe you're just a bit off the mark. Speaking of off the mark, I can't imagine why Okie State even hired DT when they could have paid far less to hire you and your crystal ball!?! In conclusion, I'm sure you're very knowledgeable and a huge fan of the sport, and admittedly much more knowledgeable than I am, but right now you're completely talking out of your ***. Yes, both wrestlers are incredibly talented, but I don't think they get there without DT and company any more than I think Hamiti or Hendrickson would have run the gauntlet they did enroute to becoming 2025 NCAA champions without DT and company.I dont think you guys know who Vega and Robideau were before they came to college lol they were elite recruits, they werent just a couple of random guys that no one heard of and DT molded into champions in a few months of them being on campus"right guys" lmfao they are the "right guys" for any school... DT is a good coach, but these guys were already top contenders before heading to okie st, and if DT wasnt at okie st I highly doubt they are getting all the blue chip recruits they brought in since DT took over, I mean they werent bringing in like this before him so the fact is hes the new exciting thing drawing in top level recruits....
197 and Hwt... again, Merrill is a blue chip recruit RS freshman lol he was gonna be good anywhere... buddy out here trying to say "facts" when u dont even know who the *** youre talking about
My friend, I believe Locket missed on Lockett. Did you watch him wrestle at NCAAs? I don't think DT could have fixed what that poor kid had going on. And I don't think DT made them in a few months; I think DT put them over the top in the months they were under his charge the same way Cael has been doing it the last 15 years.So you think Taylor made these guys in a few months he had them on campus... but somehow he missed on Lockett
Sadly it's very clear that some of us (you in this case) haven't been watching what's been happening right before our eyes. DT is Cael 2.0; he's been a champion at every level and he knows how to make champions as can be seen by the five he's produced in 2 short years. You (and the rest of us) don't have to like it, but if you're pretending it's not happening that makes you a fool.So you think Taylor made these guys in a few months he had them on campus... but somehow he missed on Lockett
Not fair to compare Jax to any of the others...gotta come up with a better argument.
You mentioned that you wanted facts, but you're on here trying to compare Jax against all the others. Really? I looked through many of the HS wrestling facts, and just don't see where the others had the creds coming out of HS that Jax had. Again, I think it comes back the fact that you don't give DT and Okie credit where it's due. Instead you prefer to go blindfolded into the dark alley where nothing bad ever happens...
I somewhat agree with this, I do think PSU prioritizes a certain body type (long arms for one) and that helps them identify a few guys like Levi Haines and Josh Barr (not that either guy was a low ranked kid) over maybe a similarly ranked kid that doesn't have the physical / mental attributes they're looking for.
But on the other hand it doesn't take a ton of brilliance to identify kids like Blaze, Duke, Lilledahl and they have pretty much gotten the pick of the litter until OSU made their regime change.
I don't know, Grip. If you look at the April 5, 2025 HS Big Board and use that as a facts-based document, though clearly it's only a guestimate, then both DeLuca and Ludington (7th and 8th) were much better gets than 19th (Robideau) and 44th (Vega). Though, I did find another Flo big board that was more realistic (Vega 12th, Rob 19th) and DeLuca and Ludington 6th and 13th. Anyhow, our boys aren't there yet, but I'm hoping we'll see something special from them this fall!
I wouldn't get too wrapped on recruit rankings. They're nice guidelines but not all top 5 pfp recruits are the same. If you were watching the tourneys Vega was clearly the real deal....if that wasn't a top 10 recruit then I'm not understanding what a top 10 recruit is. Robideau you could tell was going to be very good. Go back and watch Caliendo matches when he was in HS and I have no idea he wasn't ranked high; he beat Levi Haines, Dean Hamiti, and bullied a younger Aedon Sinclaire.....he was always talented.I don't know, Grip. If you look at the April 5, 2025 HS Big Board and use that as a facts-based document, though clearly it's only a guestimate, then both DeLuca and Ludington (7th and 8th) were much better gets than 19th (Robideau) and 44th (Vega). Though, I did find another Flo big board that was more realistic (Vega 12th, Rob 19th) and DeLuca and Ludington 6th and 13th. Anyhow, our boys aren't there yet, but I'm hoping we'll see something special from them this fall!
I agree, that's why I said, "guestimate," cause that's really all they are. Sure am going to miss Mikey...made me miss some of the guys from the previous generation...as well as Spencer and ADS.
I havent been watching??? Lmfao ,,, you are acting like Larkin mopped the floor with Robideau... it was 4-3 and me bonused everyone else... Robideau was the more aggressive, had great shots, was right there the entire match... anyone who actually ever watched him prior to the nattys knew his hat was in the mix.
Pretending its not happening
you really cant comprehend words, like literally at all where the **** did anyone ever say that... no **** hes the next one, thats exactly what I said jfc hes the shiney new exciting coach thats gonna pile up TALENT, like cael does... catch up buddy... you have to start watching more wrestling then the nattys, if you didnt know Vega prior to this season you are just a fair weathered fan , dude has been mixing it and beating top level recruits well before this yr. And again, if you dont think Hamiti and Wyatt were title contenders coming into last yr then you are dense. And if you could comprehend words youd see I put little value in rankings, that hurt Willie's feelings to here that, but those are mostly opinions ...
So you think coaching made Robideau and Vega, more then their talent and work ethics??? Taylor is now a better coach because Robideau beat Duke huh???
Another one throat goating coaching over talent,,, like Taylor and Cael just taking random **** recruits and making them into world beaters
JC, you read everything and your conclusion is i dont give the staff credit
i said coaching matters little compared to talent and work ethics... are you reading this blindfolded in a dark alley??? You guys seriously act like they are polishing turds into champions, the dumbest **** ive ever seen lol cause you didnt hear of Robideau or Vega before this yr they were mid level recruits they have plenty of credentials prior to going to Oklahoma St... like S32, Fargo, Who's #1 among other stuff... plus you can watch there vids, like vega losing to Bassett in 17u open (I believe) due to criteria, but he was a mid recruit , Taylor made him This is another absolute hilarious argument for you... so let me get this all straight...
Not fair to use Jax as an example. Cause hes special
Taylor made Vega and Robideau, cause you never heard much about them and flo had them ranked low at some point....
Lockett missed on Lockett, not the coaching staffs fault, this was all the kids fault... fuhking hilarious
... he only makes people world beaters, the ones that flopped are not his fault you dont think that just sounds dumb?I mean Fuccundo and Z Ryder should be Olympic favorites at this point since they've both been coached by the 2 best coaching staffs and were highly ranked recruits lol ... wait, not cael n Taylor's fault,,, those guys missed on themselves right lol
They just literally draw in the best, most elite talent out there.. then polish diamonds
Flo rankings, April 4th, 2025
Robideau #5 (#1 @ 157, Duke was #2 overall- #1 @ 165)
Vega #7
So what are you even talking about
The landscape of wrestling has completely changed, recruiting and resources are now more important than coaching. How many top level recruits have PSU "not developed"!
A much larger percentage of development of Top level D1 wrestlers happens in high school nowadays. Recognizing the best of the best and getting them in your room is always the priority and now the resources to make that happen has made that even more difficult for the majority of schools.
Im not saying all of the coaches at schools in the top 20 are equal, but if you gave all of the elite recruits that PSU had in the last 4 years and sent them to one of these others schools that have done fairly well without any of them, what would their results be? Im not saying it would the same, but I think the winning percentage would be closer then most would think. There are many high level coaches out there that could "make" these recruits champions.
Coaching and winning in D1 wrestling now means resources, recruitment then development.
A much larger percentage of development of Top level D1 wrestlers happens in high school nowadays. Recognizing the best of the best and getting them in your room is always the priority and now the resources to make that happen has made that even more difficult for the majority of schools.
Im not saying all of the coaches at schools in the top 20 are equal, but if you gave all of the elite recruits that PSU had in the last 4 years and sent them to one of these others schools that have done fairly well without any of them, what would their results be? Im not saying it would the same, but I think the winning percentage would be closer then most would think. There are many high level coaches out there that could "make" these recruits champions.
Coaching and winning in D1 wrestling now means resources, recruitment then development.
I agree with this... But there are exceptions to everything...Anthony Cassar was not ranked in class of 2014. I would guess it was all coaching that got him to the top. Crazy how he took out Steveson twice, granted Gable was only a freshman at the time.
Vega and Mendez is the best example. Trade coaching staffs for an entire year and Mendez beats Vega fairly easy. Trade coaching staffs with MM and MC for the past 3 years and instead of a tech fall in the finals you would have a coin flip match. Recruiting will always matter and always has mattered, but guys get better quickly when coaching is up to the task. Not every guy will thrive in the best environment or at the same time. D Locket had a terrible NCAA tournament, but I bet he ends up having a pretty good career. If coaching doesn't matter in college then it doesn't matter in high school. If it doesn't matter in high school then it doesn't matter in middle school. If it doesn't matter in middle school it doesn't matter in elementary school. The argument that it is all nature and very little nurture simply isn't true. Askren wrestling came along and made Wisky into a place that produces much greater wrestlers than it did prior. 1 year can make a huge difference in a wrestler, and some of these guys are getting 5 or 6 years with a coaching staff at the college level. I realize this is an unwinnable argument as neither view is provable but ask some of these accomplished wrestlers if they would be where they are without the coaches who have helped them improve. There are levels to coaching just as there are levels to wrestling skill. KJ had ISU unwatchable, but Dresser made them at least semi competitive in one year. It was hard not to notice when Brands returned to Iowa that the team suddenly had a lot more fire than they did at the end of Jimmy Z's career. Great coaches get old and become stale which is what I think is happening at both Iowa and ISU currently. It should shock nobody if PSU and OSU finish 1 and 2 in the next several NCAA tournaments if all of the other top players hold the line with coaching staffs. VT is the wild card here as Tony Robie seems in his prime and perhaps even still improving. He is bringing in the horses and we will find out if he can push the two monsters.
First off, Duke got screwed pretty badly in that match. Not only was the review horseshit, but if the ref just waits a little longer Duke almost certainly transitions behind and the match is over….with that said, ANYONE with a brain could see how good Robideau was right away. Hell, at National Duals he was making guys look like they were freshmen in HIGH SCHOOL…MM wrecks Caliendo NO MATTER who their coaches are, short of MAYBE Jesus Christ, himself. Even then….
Now look, coaching absolutely matters. PSU is very obviously the best at this. They adjust incredibly well and their mat wrestling improves immensely nearly across the board. But, that doesn’t mean recruiting isn’t by far the most important facet of coaching.
Any way you slice it, give Brands the PSU lineup and Cael Iowa’s and the results would be damn near the same. Maybe Iowa takes 3rd and PSU doesn’t quite break the scoring record, but they still win by a landslide…
I don’t understand why so many get their panties so bunched up over this. PSU is the best at just about every facet, it is just so unavoidably OBVIOUS that starting with the absolute best talent, puts you at least on 2nd base to start and can give you 4 or even 5 outs instead of 3…
So what’s the reason here for Iowas lack of individual champions the past 15 years? Is it because TnT can’t identify the prospects that can come in and wrestle for a title their freshman year, or they can and they just can’t convince them to come to Iowa, or is it that they can’t take a top 10 pfp guy and coach him into a champion right away?
There’s a reason we aren’t getting individual champions and according to some on here it’s all about quality of recruits; why aren’t we getting those recruits?
There’s a reason we aren’t getting individual champions and according to some on here it’s all about quality of recruits; why aren’t we getting those recruits?
The RTC situations are definitely a factor and I am sure there are other behind the scene factors that nearly all here will never be privy to. When they landed Spencer the ONLY thing that ever held him back was how injury prone he was…
You have to land top 10’s now to be competitive. Period. However, now, you HAVE to be able to identify who the truly elite 1 or 2 top 10’s per year are and land THEM. That one guy can be more valuable than landing 2 or even 3 of the more “conventional” top 10 guys.
I would watch the 2027 class very closely this upcoming season to see if any of those guys transition into that type of recruit before getting to Iowa. If they do, can they keep them from getting poached last minute?
There are people here who seriously think it is because Iowa gets the wrong elite recruits.
Great coaches help athletes maximize heir abilities. Would CSUB win a team national title with Gable or Cael coaching? No, but each athlete could be significantly improved.
No panties in wad…just responding to someone’s opinion with my own. Thanks for sharing though.
No, I’m acting like Larkin beat Robideau, which I’m thinking was not in that crystal ball of yours. And I didn’t say anyone is better than anyone else because of a win against another opponent. You’re arguing just to argue.I havent been watching??? Lmfao ,,, you are acting like Larkin mopped the floor with Robideau... it was 4-3 and me bonused everyone else... Robideau was the more aggressive, had great shots, was right there the entire match... anyone who actually ever watched him prior to the nattys knew his hat was in the mix.
Pretending its not happening
And if you could comprehend words youd see I put little value in rankings, that hurt Willie's feelings to here that, but those are mostly opinions ...
So you think coaching made Robideau and Vega, more then their talent and work ethics??? Taylor is now a better coach because Robideau beat Duke huh???
Another one throat goating coaching over talent,,, like Taylor and Cael just taking random **** recruits and making them into world beaters
That and just like the NFL draft, there's what all the "experts" think then there's what the teams think. They're rarely one and the same. Great teams miss in the draft less than average ones bc they're better at evaluating talent and determining how the player will translate to the league regardless of the rankings.
So all they do is recruit better than us? And DT and Cael suck because 100 percent of their recruits aren’t NCAA champs. Oh, and the refs are the reason we don’t win more matches? Thank God we cleared all that up.This is another absolute hilarious argument for you... so let me get this all straight...
Not fair to use Jax as an example. Cause hes special
Taylor made Vega and Robideau, cause you never heard much about them and flo had them ranked low at some point....
Lockett missed on Lockett, not the coaching staffs fault, this was all the kids fault... fuhking hilarious
I mean Fuccundo and Z Ryder should be Olympic favorites at this point since they've both been coached by the 2 best coaching staffs and were highly ranked recruits lol ... wait, not cael n Taylor's fault,,, those guys missed on themselves right lol
They just literally draw in the best, most elite talent out there.. then polish diamonds
I’ll send you the IRLs when I get home from the gym so we can both blame it on FLO.
All good points. Would Cael have been pushing the new training facility above improving the RTC? Would the teams remain in this pecking order through the next two recruiting cycles and several transfer portals opening and closing. We don't have answers to these questions and can only speculate. I suspect that if Cael and Brands switched jobs with each bringing the current crop of assistant coaches along to the new job within three or four years Iowa would beat PSU at an NCAA tournament. I see the chances at zero with the current situation. I stand firm in my prediction that Iowa will never win another team title with Tom Brands as the head coach, and I'm not nearly as certain that is the fault of Tom Brands. Situations change and even great coaches can become stale in jobs. I feel almost as certain if Tom Brands suddenly left Iowa and went to Oklahoma we would see a much improved result for the Sooners within a couple of years.
Couldn’t agree more, I think the recruiting failures are directly tied to lack of individual champs. Kem/bull/eierman/woods/ never winning was a gut punch. Can include Drake in that group as well. Iowa wins the team title in ‘21, but Penn state has 4 champs (I believe) and the whole finals was about them. Saturday night is ultimately what matters to the elite guys
The recruiting issues are no doubt part of it, just not the whole part. When you struggle this badly to produce champs it’s not just one thing.
It would likely help in terms of sheer number of champions. But based on our success with the elite recruits we have gotten, it is only natural to wonder how much.
(Maybe you were agreeing with me and I misinterpreted.)
Welcome to the Internet Willie. First day?
In the real world I think you are EXTREMELY CLOSE on your %'s (with the typical margin for error factored in of course........). Well done.
Coaching & recruiting are equally important imo. You can bring in elite recruits but watch them fade as time goes by with poor coaching or see them progress through their career with great coaching...
Anyhow back to portal talk. I think we start hearing legit names soon
Anyhow back to portal talk. I think we start hearing legit names soon
Sorry, the panties part wasn’t directed at you. It was mainly for PSU fans and Willie up in arms against those saying recruiting is by far the most important part of coaching.
That doesn’t mean some bum off the street could skate through every year simply due to recruiting, but many of these kids have been wrestling their whole lives and have had tons of access to successful DI training partners well before hitting a DI room.
As long as the college lifestyle isn’t something they can be distracted by, many of the very best kids would do VERY well in just about any DI room they enter.
With that said, PSU has definitely setup an environment that is most likely to keep these kids focused on being their best and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, not run down by their 5th seasons…
Are you saying there isn’t an obvious difference between a Spencer Lee or Jax Forrest recruit vs. an Arnold or Kennedy? Mind you, I probably cheered harder for both Arnold and Kennedy than I ever did for Spencer, but that was actually because you knew they never had the margin for error that someone like Lee had.
Not all top 10’s are the same and some years there may not even be a Lee or Forrest type. Some years there are several. Even then, some kids fly a little under the radar, like Messenbrink, only to show just how good they are while redshirting at a tiny school like Cal Baptist and quickly get snatched by PSU.
I don’t want to denigrate any kids. Just being a top 10ish type recruit puts you in the .0001 percent of high school wrestlers. Going on to AA multiple times and maybe even make the Finals is an accomplishment 99% of DI wrestlers would LOVE to have as a career. But, that 1% currently wins championships and PSU has recruited an overwhelming amount of them over the years…
Yes, please show your formula because your math is absolutely f*cked! Let me break it down for you:
83% recruiting + 83% pure coaching = 83% on the coach.
83 + 83 = 83.
The only other slightly acceptable number is 23 because the 23rd prime number is... 83.
I cannot believe you didn't learn this in the prerequisite "Introductory to Cesspool Math" course when you signed up for HR many years ago.