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"Kentucky hasn't been consistently historically great?"

Son_Of_Saul

Son_Of_Saul

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I've seen some fans on here posting that UK hasn't been great consistently. They cite the absence of titles between 1958 and 1978, and between 1978 and 1996 as evidence of this.

I feel like this is a disengenuous, if not outright moronic position to take. If all we consider to be "great" are national titles, then is Duke great? Is UConn? Is UNC or Kansas? They all have at least two less titles then we do.

The reality is that between the 1939 (the first year the NCAA tournament was played) and 2019 (our last Elite Eight), UK was going to the Elite Eight 48% of the time.

Read that sentence again.

That means we were at least a top 10 team almost HALF of the time.

There is no program that has been to the Elite Eight as much as we have. Only UNC/Duke have as many AP top 10 finishes as we do.

So my question is this: if the Kentucky standard before Cal's lazy years had been an Elite Eight 48% of the time, and a top 10 finish almost half the time, and that is still not considered "consistently great", then just who should be considered consistently great?

It's an absurd, deflective, stupid argument that is often only made to minimize fan expectations.
 
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Son_Of_Saul

Son_Of_Saul

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Johnnie Africa said:
“Tomatoes aren’t red?” I’ve seen people here saying tomatoes aren’t red, here’s 5 paragraphs disproving that.
Click to expand...
I once met a middle-aged, lifelong Bible believing Christian who had never heard the theological position that Jesus created the universe. She was shocked when she heard this view.

I'm no longer surprised how we take basic knowledge for granted. A little reminder never hurts anyone.
 
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whack0001

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Saying we haven’t been consistently great is just flat out dumb. We’re literally the most consistently great program in the history of men’s college basketball. The success between the championship years is what makes us the greatest program in history. Other teams have won some championships, but what did they do between them? UCLA hasn’t done ****, UConn hasn’t done ****, Florida hasn’t done ****, Indiana hasn’t done ****. Where is “The List” when you need it? Lol.
 
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Trinity45

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Son_Of_Saul said:
I've seen some fans on here posting that UK hasn't been great consistently. They cite the absence of titles between 1958 and 1978, and between 1978 and 1996 as evidence of this.

I feel like this is a disengenuous, if not outright moronic position to take. If all we consider to be "great" are national titles, then is Duke great? Is UConn? Is UNC or Kansas? They all have at least two less titles then we do.

The reality is that between the 1939 (the first year the NCAA tournament was played) and 2018 (our last Elite Eight), UK was going to the Elite Eight 48% of the time.

Read that sentence again.

That means we were at least a top 10 team almost HALF of the time.

There is no program that has been to the Elite Eight as much as we have. Only UNC/Duke have as many AP top 10 finishes as we do.

So my question is this: if the Kentucky standard before Cal's lazy years had been an Elite Eight 48% of the time, and a top 10 finish almost half the time, and that is still not considered "consistently great", then just who should be considered consistently great?

It's an absurd, deflective, stupid argument that is often only made to minimize fan expectations.
Click to expand...
Under Hall UK at least went to the final 4 in 75 and 84 as well, Tubby won that first season but really fell off after that, Rick went to a couple of final 4's winning in 96 and Cal had a great first 5 years then went to mediocrity after that.
 
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Wayne Dougan

Wayne Dougan

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We won titles in the 40's, 50's, 70's, 90's and 10's. We have final fours in every decade since the 40's other than the 00's and 20's.
 
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Trinity45

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Wayne Dougan said:
People forget that Tubby had a great run from 02-03 to 04-05.

- 02-03, #1 team in nation and Bogans getting hurt stopped us in the Elite 8.
- 03-04, #1 seed but lost to UAB (sad)
- 04-05, #2 seed but lost to Mich St in 2OT Elite 8

He fell off after that.
Click to expand...
True, but losing again to a lesser seeded team, sort of reminded me of Cal's last 5 years. I will say Tubby was a fine coach but loathed recruiting.
 
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Son_Of_Saul

Son_Of_Saul

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Wayne Dougan said:
People forget that Tubby had a great run from 02-03 to 04-05.

- 02-03, #1 team in nation and Bogans getting hurt stopped us in the Elite 8.
- 03-04, #1 seed but lost to UAB (sad)
- 04-05, #2 seed but lost to Mich St in 2OT Elite 8

He fell off after that.
Click to expand...
Pitino was the last coach who never got too comfortable with his success. He was always pushing for more. We need to hire another competitive sociopath to run this program.
 
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Anon1685457815

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Son_Of_Saul said:
I've seen some fans on here posting that UK hasn't been great consistently. They cite the absence of titles between 1958 and 1978, and between 1978 and 1996 as evidence of this.

I feel like this is a disengenuous, if not outright moronic position to take. If all we consider to be "great" are national titles, then is Duke great? Is UConn? Is UNC or Kansas? They all have at least two less titles then we do.

The reality is that between the 1939 (the first year the NCAA tournament was played) and 2018 (our last Elite Eight), UK was going to the Elite Eight 48% of the time.

Read that sentence again.

That means we were at least a top 10 team almost HALF of the time.

There is no program that has been to the Elite Eight as much as we have. Only UNC/Duke have as many AP top 10 finishes as we do.

So my question is this: if the Kentucky standard before Cal's lazy years had been an Elite Eight 48% of the time, and a top 10 finish almost half the time, and that is still not considered "consistently great", then just who should be considered consistently great?

It's an absurd, deflective, stupid argument that is often only made to minimize fan expectations.
Click to expand...
most games won,32 sec champs,most ncaa appear,most sweet 16,most elite 8,2nd final 4 ,2nd Champions ,I think thats consistent
. but to continue that we have to unload bad coach s quick,like we always have
 
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Old Blue Fart

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Son_Of_Saul said:
I've seen some fans on here posting that UK hasn't been great consistently. They cite the absence of titles between 1958 and 1978, and between 1978 and 1996 as evidence of this.

I feel like this is a disengenuous, if not outright moronic position to take. If all we consider to be "great" are national titles, then is Duke great? Is UConn? Is UNC or Kansas? They all have at least two less titles then we do.

The reality is that between the 1939 (the first year the NCAA tournament was played) and 2018 (our last Elite Eight), UK was going to the Elite Eight 48% of the time.

Read that sentence again.

That means we were at least a top 10 team almost HALF of the time.

There is no program that has been to the Elite Eight as much as we have. Only UNC/Duke have as many AP top 10 finishes as we do.

So my question is this: if the Kentucky standard before Cal's lazy years had been an Elite Eight 48% of the time, and a top 10 finish almost half the time, and that is still not considered "consistently great", then just who should be considered consistently great?

It's an absurd, deflective, stupid argument that is often only made to minimize fan expectations.
Click to expand...
You are correct in what you posted....butttt:
As a coach, you teach your players to "be in the moment". Question then becomes what do you mean by that?
"forget the last shot, it is the next one"
"come on, next pitch"

And so on. What you posted is a "looking in the rear view mirror" approach to UK basketball.

Where are we today?
What does the future look like for UK basketball?

Since 2018, how many loses has UK had? How many NCAA tournament wins since 2018?

Something is not working with UK Basketball, plain and simple. Everyone has their opinion but the clear picture is UK basketball is not winning at the rate we once was. UK basketball is losing home games at a record clip. UK basketball has lost more games by double figures in this year alone then multiple years combined.

The summer after Arizona won in 1997, I was at a clinic for Arizona softball and was in a session held my a man named Jeff Janssen. Arizona referred to this man as their "secret weapon".
Jeff taught the mental game.
He told us something that I used for many years after that day:
What are we doing today that we need to stop doing?
What are we not doing that we need to start doing today?
What are we doing that we need to keep doing?

Read that and ask yourself those questions about UK basketball in this moment.
It's called self reflection. If anyone thinks we are doing more good then what we need to start/stop doing, then UK basketball is clearly a different animal these days.

The Roman Empire fell due to more people living in Rome that were not Romans. Their culture collapsed due to this. UK basketball does not have but one person I see that has UK blood running thru their veins and that is Coach Pope. It is all a business mentality. Win or lose, how much money can I make.

People would stop doing everything they did to listen to Cawood. People trusted Joe B. It was a group of Kentucky bred boys along with a great player who brought UK back once. These days, come game day, we no longer are feared nor do UK fans expect to win. Staying close in the score is now considered a good day.

No, Saul, UK basketball is no way close to the days you wrote about. Those days are now in our dreams.
UK basketball needs to look itself in the mirror before we become Nebraska football, UCLA, IU, Cal State Fullerton baseball; all programs once feared in their day.
 
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M

MakinMusic_rivals

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Son_Of_Saul said:
I've seen some fans on here posting that UK hasn't been great consistently. They cite the absence of titles between 1958 and 1978, and between 1978 and 1996 as evidence of this.

I feel like this is a disengenuous, if not outright moronic position to take. If all we consider to be "great" are national titles, then is Duke great? Is UConn? Is UNC or Kansas? They all have at least two less titles then we do.

The reality is that between the 1939 (the first year the NCAA tournament was played) and 2018 (our last Elite Eight), UK was going to the Elite Eight 48% of the time.

Read that sentence again.

That means we were at least a top 10 team almost HALF of the time.

There is no program that has been to the Elite Eight as much as we have. Only UNC/Duke have as many AP top 10 finishes as we do.

So my question is this: if the Kentucky standard before Cal's lazy years had been an Elite Eight 48% of the time, and a top 10 finish almost half the time, and that is still not considered "consistently great", then just who should be considered consistently great?

It's an absurd, deflective, stupid argument that is often only made to minimize fan expectations.
Click to expand...
I agree completely. In fact, I had a similar conversation with some people after the game. The young fans have been conditioned to accept mediocre. It’s not how greatness happens. Just isn’t the way it works nor how it’s worked with Kentucky basketball for the past 85 years.
 
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JayHank

JayHank

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Another factor that makes UK's early history and first four NCAA Championships so impressive was only ONE team was selected from each conference for the tournament. To be invited to the NCAA Tournament you had to win your league championship. It was that important.

Now you can finish 10th or even lower and get an invite.
 
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SamePooter

SamePooter

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It’s a great thing to be great historically. Let’s celebrate some modern success. Let’s celebrate a elite 8 that you mentioned we accomplish 48% of the time.

I enjoy our tradition. It’s pride. I also can only get so pumped up about all times wins when I’ve only been alive for 30 years. I can only get so excited about a championship in the 70s or 50s.

We’re great. We’re a blue blood. So why is Pope allowed to get this job? Because our fanbase isn’t going to give Mitch any lip about it. We can’t even get him to answer questions about JMI. I want to be great in the future.

I don’t want it to be year 2065 and I’m telling my grandkids about I remember in 2012 we had this guy named Anthony Davis and boy was he unstoppable.
 
Wayne Dougan

Wayne Dougan

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Old Blue Fart said:
You are correct in what you posted....butttt:
As a coach, you teach your players to "be in the moment". Question then becomes what do you mean by that?
"forget the last shot, it is the next one"
"come on, next pitch"

And so on. What you posted is a "looking in the rear view mirror" approach to UK basketball.

Where are we today?
What does the future look like for UK basketball?

Since 2018, how many loses has UK had? How many NCAA tournament wins since 2018?

Something is not working with UK Basketball, plain and simple. Everyone has their opinion but the clear picture is UK basketball is not winning at the rate we once was. UK basketball is losing home games at a record clip. UK basketball has lost more games by double figures in this year alone then multiple years combined.

The summer after Arizona won in 1997, I was at a clinic for Arizona softball and was in a session held my a man named Jeff Janssen. Arizona referred to this man as their "secret weapon".
Jeff taught the mental game.
He told us something that I used for many years after that day:
What are we doing today that we need to stop doing?
What are we not doing that we need to start doing today?
What are we doing that we need to keep doing?

Read that and ask yourself those questions about UK basketball in this moment.
It's called self reflection. If anyone thinks we are doing more good then what we need to start/stop doing, then UK basketball is clearly a different animal these days.

The Roman Empire fell due to more people living in Rome that were not Romans. Their culture collapsed due to this. UK basketball does not have but one person I see that has UK blood running thru their veins and that is Coach Pope. It is all a business mentality. Win or lose, how much money can I make.

People would stop doing everything they did to listen to Cawood. People trusted Joe B. It was a group of Kentucky bred boys along with a great player who brought UK back once. These days, come game day, we no longer are feared nor do UK fans expect to win. Staying close in the score is now considered a good day.

No, Saul, UK basketball is no way close to the days you wrote about. Those days are now in our dreams.
UK basketball needs to look itself in the mirror before we become Nebraska football, UCLA, IU, Cal State Fullerton baseball; all programs once feared in their day.
Click to expand...

This is a good post... but...
  • I think the "not working" started the first year of COVID (2020-21).
  • In 2019-2020, we were like 23-6 and starting to really look good. That team had Maxey, Quickley and Richards. That's more in line with Cal's teams from 2017, 18, 19.
  • 2020-21 broke Cal in my opinion. The player empowerment era / transfer era exposed Cal's strategy of relying on freshman. We saw how that played out for the next four years.
  • Mitch f'd us with the Cal contract. They found a sneaky out clause, but had not been really testing the market.
  • We took a low-cost flyer on Pope. Looks to me this isn't going to work, but he was in a tough spot. Last year he had to piece together a squad at the last second... worked okay. But that screwed him with this year's team - especially with the key injuries.
 
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20MRoster

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Tubby had 4 EEs in 10 seasons -- was ran off in 2 years after an EE. Skip to present day and Pope is hailed for a S16 (in which UK got blown out). Definitely the standards have decreased. I think UK's legacy going forward will be determined by the next coaching hire -- I don't think we will be "one coach away" nor the #1 blue blood anymore if the next hire flops, and if Golden ends up at KU.
 
A

AJG-15

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I like this post and discussion It has started.

Kentucky is the most storied program in college basketball.

To win once is hard. To maintain that level and win again and again over different period of times, with different coaches , talks about the greatness of the history of this program.

Calipari was good hire back in 2010. He was successful and hungry. Also, he found the key of success by getting the most talented HS players . His motto was : “ I will take talent over experience any day”.
That worked for about a decade. Others did the same and even refined his strategy by having talented freshman with experienced upperclassman that the their coach system. When Cal stopped innovating , and also being hungry , he stopped being successful. Then to justify it in his mind he created this story about creating generational wealth…..
Cal is still a great story teller and good teacher. His players love him.


Pope was a hire to respond to the BBN outcry for going back to our roots and put the university first before the NBA draft. Pope though better anchored in the current popular ofense of shooting 3s than Cal, has never been an innovator or a very good leader like Cal . He lucks many things, including toughness. When you the father of girls that makes you soften. I am looking at his body language when he interacts with his players and I cringe. He does not know how to show emotions and is not sure how to do it. I want him to succeed because his one of ours but is always a tough act to follow when you are hired after a HOF Coach.


The clause that Mitch give Pope with S 16 automatic renewal, speaks volume of how out of touch Mitch is with UK basketball program though he run it for decades.

OP just proved that our minimum standard is E8 , so why as AD set the bar lower. Cal was right to complain about Mitch, because he never understood that the competitive advantage Duke has on recruiting And media coverage.

The UK President gave the wrong guy ( Mitch ) the upgraded ambassador role. Instead if giving it to Cal it was giving to Mitch. This will cost us in a long run not only in relevance but also in networking and media coverage,
 
BlueSince92

BlueSince92

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Son_Of_Saul said:
I once met a middle-aged, lifelong Bible believing Christian who had never heard the theological position that Jesus created the universe. She was shocked when she heard this view.
Click to expand...
There are tons more like her, sadly. It’s the difference between Bible “believing” Christians and Bible reading Christians.
 
J

JonathanW2

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Titles are very important obviously.
But there is a big difference between football and basketball (although it's narrowing), in that a OAD tournament more often than not does not have the Best Team win the tournament.
So, to ONLY look at that 1 criteria (Titles) is insufficient.

I think it is better to look at how many times was your team one of the realistic favorites to win the Title. "Realistic favorites" is a bit vague, and may vary from person to person, and even year to year, but for most years I would say there are 8-12 real title contenders (that if before the tournament you were told one of those would win it, then you would say "I could see that happening").

Based on that, in my 45ish years as a UK fan, we have been one of those "contenders" 83, 84, 86, 87, (NA 89 or 90), 92, 93, 95, 96, 97, 98, 03, 04, 05, 10, 11, 12, 15, 17, 19, 20, 22, 24. That is about 1/2 of the 42-44 years. I would say that qualifies.
 
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SandyBell'sFaxMachine

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Son_Of_Saul said:
I've seen some fans on here posting that UK hasn't been great consistently. They cite the absence of titles between 1958 and 1978, and between 1978 and 1996 as evidence of this.

I feel like this is a disengenuous, if not outright moronic position to take. If all we consider to be "great" are national titles, then is Duke great? Is UConn? Is UNC or Kansas? They all have at least two less titles then we do.

The reality is that between the 1939 (the first year the NCAA tournament was played) and 2018 (our last Elite Eight), UK was going to the Elite Eight 48% of the time.

Read that sentence again.

That means we were at least a top 10 team almost HALF of the time.

There is no program that has been to the Elite Eight as much as we have. Only UNC/Duke have as many AP top 10 finishes as we do.

So my question is this: if the Kentucky standard before Cal's lazy years had been an Elite Eight 48% of the time, and a top 10 finish almost half the time, and that is still not considered "consistently great", then just who should be considered consistently great?

It's an absurd, deflective, stupid argument that is often only made to minimize fan expectations.
Click to expand...
2019 is our last elite 8.
 
FLBBNFAN

FLBBNFAN

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Son_Of_Saul said:
Pitino was the last coach who never got too comfortable with his success. He was always pushing for more. We need to hire another competitive sociopath to run this program.
Click to expand...
You got that right. We could be up 30 and give up a couple of easy baskets and Pitino would lose his mind lol .
 
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Drogon

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I've brought up the E8 stat in discussions before. That's the standard for Kentucky. Ain't nobody else like us. Our coaches haven't lived up to that for 5 seasons headed towards 6.


No E8 this season and it will be the longest drought in program history.
 
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niswanderben

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Kentucky is #1 all-time
#3 last 50 years
#6 last 25
#7 last 20
#9 last 15
#17 last 10
#16 last 5

You can feel many ways about that.

Best football comp is Notre Dame with Nebraska trajectory.
 
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U

UKAlum84

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Im gonna say it, Wooden outperformed Rupp.


But where the heck has UCLA been all these years?
 
SamePooter

SamePooter

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Drogon said:
I've brought up the E8 stat in discussions before. That's the standard for Kentucky. Ain't nobody else like us. Our coaches haven't lived up to that for 5 seasons headed towards 6.


No E8 this season and it will be the longest drought in program history.
Click to expand...
That’s ok tho because of the championships in 1950-1970. We got tradition. We got winning history. That’s better than winning now. Bask in the past! This is Kentucky..
 
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paulcalhoun_rivals397471

paulcalhoun_rivals397471

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Anon1685457815 said:
most games won,32 sec champs,most ncaa appear,most sweet 16,most elite 8,2nd final 4 ,2nd Champions ,I think thats consistent
. but to continue that we have to unload bad coach s quick,like we always have
Click to expand...
We have only unloaded two coaches the others left by their own choice. The two that were removed were alcoholics embroiled in controversy.
 
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paulcalhoun_rivals397471

paulcalhoun_rivals397471

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Old Blue Fart said:
You are correct in what you posted....butttt:
As a coach, you teach your players to "be in the moment". Question then becomes what do you mean by that?
"forget the last shot, it is the next one"
"come on, next pitch"

And so on. What you posted is a "looking in the rear view mirror" approach to UK basketball.

Where are we today?
What does the future look like for UK basketball?

Since 2018, how many loses has UK had? How many NCAA tournament wins since 2018?

Something is not working with UK Basketball, plain and simple. Everyone has their opinion but the clear picture is UK basketball is not winning at the rate we once was. UK basketball is losing home games at a record clip. UK basketball has lost more games by double figures in this year alone then multiple years combined.

The summer after Arizona won in 1997, I was at a clinic for Arizona softball and was in a session held my a man named Jeff Janssen. Arizona referred to this man as their "secret weapon".
Jeff taught the mental game.
He told us something that I used for many years after that day:
What are we doing today that we need to stop doing?
What are we not doing that we need to start doing today?
What are we doing that we need to keep doing?

Read that and ask yourself those questions about UK basketball in this moment.
It's called self reflection. If anyone thinks we are doing more good then what we need to start/stop doing, then UK basketball is clearly a different animal these days.

The Roman Empire fell due to more people living in Rome that were not Romans. Their culture collapsed due to this. UK basketball does not have but one person I see that has UK blood running thru their veins and that is Coach Pope. It is all a business mentality. Win or lose, how much money can I make.

People would stop doing everything they did to listen to Cawood. People trusted Joe B. It was a group of Kentucky bred boys along with a great player who brought UK back once. These days, come game day, we no longer are feared nor do UK fans expect to win. Staying close in the score is now considered a good day.

No, Saul, UK basketball is no way close to the days you wrote about. Those days are now in our dreams.
UK basketball needs to look itself in the mirror before we become Nebraska football, UCLA, IU, Cal State Fullerton baseball; all programs once feared in their day.
Click to expand...
2018 is a strange point to pick. UK went 81-24 from 2018-2020.
 
Vek96

Vek96

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One title this century. No Final Fours from 1999-2010……no Final Fours from 2016-current.

Lots of dry spells.
 
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SamePooter

SamePooter

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7 titles in 100 years is impressive. Almost like Florida has three in 25 years.
 
paulcalhoun_rivals397471

paulcalhoun_rivals397471

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SamePooter said:
I’m glad you said that. Makes it clear to me Pope will be here as long as Cal was.

We hang round of 32 banners!
Click to expand...
This take is downright goofy. He tried to make it out like the key to our success has been to quickly fire coaches. Pope will get it turned around or he will be gone. He was handed an empty roster very late in the process. His less than two years have been severely limited by injuries. Last year was a solid job given the circumstances. This season has been very disappointing but the impatience from many of you is a bit ridiculous.

I don't know the exact criteria for next year but if it is not considerably better than this one he will most likely be removed.
 
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SamePooter

SamePooter

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paulcalhoun_rivals397471 said:
This take is downright goofy. He tried to make it out like the key to our success has been to quickly fire coaches. Pope will get it turned around or he will be gone. He was handed an empty roster very late in the process. His less than two years have been severely limited by injuries. Last year was a solid job given the circumstances. This season has been very disappointing but the impatience from many of you is a bit ridiculous.

I don't know the exact criteria for next year but if it is not considerably better than this one he will most likely be removed.
Click to expand...
Cal had an empty roster at Arkansas. Made the sweet 16. Even Arky fans weren’t happy with the results but here Kentucky is. The bluest of blue…. Happy with the results because of the situation.
 
SamePooter

SamePooter

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paulcalhoun_rivals397471 said:
This take is downright goofy. He tried to make it out like the key to our success has been to quickly fire coaches. Pope will get it turned around or he will be gone. He was handed an empty roster very late in the process. His less than two years have been severely limited by injuries. Last year was a solid job given the circumstances. This season has been very disappointing but the impatience from many of you is a bit ridiculous.

I don't know the exact criteria for next year but if it is not considerably better than this one he will most likely be removed.
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And I respect your opinion. But I don’t believe he will be removed. If he’s not going to be removed after this season then everyone should just get comfortable.

Pope will be here no less than the contract he was given. But more than likely … like this year… he wins just enough to make the tournament after being nationally embarrassed multiple times then reaches a sweet 16 … which is the new standard.

I fully expect him to make a sweet 16 this year and have the entire board pumped up about all these 6th men we are about to get.


Stokes drives down the lane dunks on Trent Noah for the and one… hearing the announcers laugh in my head
 
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