Trump Just Surrendered to Iran--Pathetic

ThorneStockton

All-Conference
Oct 2, 2009
790
2,060
93
you might be coming into this debate a little late...As I explained, or tried to, there is a planning sequence to military engagements...The military had not finished with the first part of the operation..you don't just do one segment part way and then move to another then back to the first..that's simply not how it's done for obvious reasons. In the planning order there is something called "concept of operations" which lays out the plans and the sequence. to take the strait would have required ground forces, and as you might recall, the Marines weren't there yet. Now if you want to criticize that the ground forces weren't there, remember, they didn't need to be there first, because the concept of operations didn't require them to be there.

To your second question, if I were part of the planning sequence I would have started pretty much most ground operations do...bomb/lob large shells from offshore ships into areas where we put ground troops. I would have gone after the IRGC ground troops with aviation to take out communication and ground command and control. Then put ground forces in the area where we know the Iranians are launching their missiles and drones. Now how close we were to engaging those capabilities I really have no idea. As to plans, the military has entire groups in the pentagon who do nothing but war planning and war gaming. I watched numerous interviews on numerous networks talking about both those plans and the gaming. There was total agreement that effective plans were in place. I was not part of the planning group, I was in R&D and acquisition during my Pentagon years. So, I'm not an expert on the other side.
On timing of the closure, again from interviews, the military expected strait closure to be an Iranian strategy. But coming back to the concept of operations, it wasn't the first thing to be accomplished.



why don't we wait and see what the agreement is before we draw our conclusions. I know I am. I hear different reports from different people, none of whom have seen the agreement. I'll be among those who criticize it if it's bad for us. But would have to admit he was right on Friday when he said the "war is almost over". :)

I didn't realize this was a debate. I thought you were the one with the knowledge of military strategy/tactics, the one with knowledge of our military capabilities. I was hoping you would share some of that knowledge. Sort of disappointing that you refuse.

Well, besides sharing the concept of a "concept of operations".

It's interesting that in your version of events, the concept of operations didn't require ground troops to be there. While also in your version of events, effective plans were in place, which again in your version would have required ground troops. Sort of tricky to reconcile.

Sort of like the idea that our military was in total control of everything, except the strait. The same strait that became critical Iranian leverage that they used to hamstring basically all of Trump's purported goals of the war.

Maybe the concept of operations should have had a higher priority on the strait? But what do I know? I'm not the expert in military strategy/tactics, but at least now I know who to ask about how R&D and acquisitions worked how many decades ago?
 

baltimorened

All-American
May 29, 2001
7,097
5,248
113
I didn't realize this was a debate. I thought you were the one with the knowledge of military strategy/tactics, the one with knowledge of our military capabilities. I was hoping you would share some of that knowledge. Sort of disappointing that you refuse.

Well, besides sharing the concept of a "concept of operations".

It's interesting that in your version of events, the concept of operations didn't require ground troops to be there. While also in your version of events, effective plans were in place, which again in your version would have required ground troops. Sort of tricky to reconcile.

Sort of like the idea that our military was in total control of everything, except the strait. The same strait that became critical Iranian leverage that they used to hamstring basically all of Trump's purported goals of the war.

Maybe the concept of operations should have had a higher priority on the strait? But what do I know? I'm not the expert in military strategy/tactics, but at least now I know who to ask about how R&D and acquisitions worked how many decades ago?
ok, it's been fun..you seem to know more..so no sense me participating
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hotshoe
Mar 8, 2010
7,471
14,464
113
So if something that was never in a milion years going to happen, has never happened and will never happen actually HAPPENED then this would have made sense?

STRATEGERY!
Nothing I said means the US didn't screw up in their efforts...

Iran is a dictatorship that abuses it's citizenry and sponsors terrorism across the Middle East. I can see why Israeli wanted to neuter them given their long standing funding of terrorism against Israeli.

We just screwed up our involvement. Trump is an idiot, as we all are well aware.

Iran was much more liberal prior to the 1979 Islamic Revolution. There have been a couple uprisings that came close to toppling current leadership. Had Israel and USA conspired to attack when the uprisings were building we may have broken them.

Unfortunately our timing was poor as Iran has just recently beat back (killing 10k plus) another uprising. Thus organized opposition was at a weak point.
 

baltimorened

All-American
May 29, 2001
7,097
5,248
113
Large Marge is not happy!


she might want to wait to see the agreement. From lastest reports the money is not coming from the US but from the Gulf States....

I don't know what the answer is either, but people assuming things that they don't know .....

I can remember the days when MTG posts were ridiculed by folks on the left. Now she's become the "darling"...what a little anti trump behavior can bring.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hotshoe

Torbee

Heisman
Sep 13, 2002
12,999
58,980
113
Nothing I said means the US didn't screw up in their efforts...

Iran is a dictatorship that abuses it's citizenry and sponsors terrorism across the Middle East. I can see why Israeli wanted to neuter them given their long standing funding of terrorism against Israeli.

We just screwed up our involvement. Trump is an idiot, as we all are well aware.

Iran was much more liberal prior to the 1979 Islamic Revolution. There have been a couple uprisings that came close to toppling current leadership. Had Israel and USA conspired to attack when the uprisings were building we may have broken them.

Unfortunately our timing was poor as Iran has just recently beat back (killing 10k plus) another uprising. Thus organized opposition was at a weak point.
Had a decent executive been commander in chief in 2025-26, the time to act was DURING the popular uprising. And with a PLAN to assist anti-regime dissidents seize power. Unfortunately, we have a clown with a clown show cabinet instead - which is why Iran despite getting pummeled and bruised, achieved many of its strategic goals and the U.S. achieved none.
 

Torbee

Heisman
Sep 13, 2002
12,999
58,980
113
she might want to wait to see the agreement. From lastest reports the money is not coming from the US but from the Gulf States....

I don't know what the answer is either, but people assuming things that they don't know .....

I can remember the days when MTG posts were ridiculed by folks on the left. Now she's become the "darling"...what a little anti trump behavior can bring.
Again, WHERE DO YOU THINK THE "GULF STATES" ARE GETTING THIS $300 billion from?
 

UrHuckleberry

Heisman
Jun 2, 2024
10,144
21,471
113
ok, it's been fun..you seem to know more..so no sense me participating
Would you consider controlling the strait an important part of the war? I think their point is you're saying our military has been successful in everything. And yet, that seems to be a really important part of any objective overall. So you may be saying everything they've attempted to do, they've done successfully (like taking out air defense, etc), and that if they were to try to control the strait they could? And yet, they have not, and it seems to be a pretty important part of any war equation as without it, the world economy is affected and is the largest piece of leverage Iran has over the US and the world.

Since I've been watching the world cup, it sort of feels like we've done everything but actually score goals. So we've controlled possession, and Iran hasn't scored so our defense has been perfectly successful, and we, I guess, just haven't tried to score so therefore we've been successful in everything we've done. But they are saying, all that success doesn't matter because scoring a goal (or controlling the strait) is such an essential part of actually winning the game (the war).
 
Mar 8, 2010
7,471
14,464
113
Had a decent executive been commander in chief in 2025-26, the time to act was DURING the popular uprising. And with a PLAN to assist anti-regime dissidents seize power. Unfortunately, we have a clown with a clown show cabinet instead - which is why Iran despite getting pummeled and bruised, achieved many of its strategic goals and the U.S. achieved none.
Yeah I don't disagree with that. Totally miss timed if we wanted a real shot at dislodging current regime. (Iran had basically beat them down by January iirc)

Given what did happen, we should have at least stayed back and let Israel do all the dirty work. I think Trump got talked into it and the rest is history. This crazy flailing about we've seen the last 3 months.

About the only concrete thing I can see that we got out of it is exhausting some of Irans weapons and resources. They're weaker that way now. But they've also established a new point of leverage, perhaps extracted valuable concessions from the US, and established a younger revitalized but still terrible leadership.
 
Mar 8, 2010
7,471
14,464
113
CNN reports tonight that Iran says it will not be collecting “tolls” in the Strait, which are prohibited under the MOU. It will however be collecting “fees”.

CNN also reports that Hegseth and Rubio have “concerns” about this “agreement”.
I had originally assumed that we wouldn't let them control the strait like that... That we would at least have to wrestle that back. Sometimes the neocons are right
 
  • Like
Reactions: yoshi121374

baltimorened

All-American
May 29, 2001
7,097
5,248
113
Would you consider controlling the strait an important part of the war? I think their point is you're saying our military has been successful in everything. And yet, that seems to be a really important part of any objective overall. So you may be saying everything they've attempted to do, they've done successfully (like taking out air defense, etc), and that if they were to try to control the strait they could? And yet, they have not, and it seems to be a pretty important part of any war equation as without it, the world economy is affected and is the largest piece of leverage Iran has over the US and the world.

Since I've been watching the world cup, it sort of feels like we've done everything but actually score goals. So we've controlled possession, and Iran hasn't scored so our defense has been perfectly successful, and we, I guess, just haven't tried to score so therefore we've been successful in everything we've done. But they are saying, all that success doesn't matter because scoring a goal (or controlling the strait) is such an essential part of actually winning the game (the war).
so let me ask a question...if you're planning a war, what targets do you go after first? Resources in theater are limited....so you can't do everything at the same time, and not that you would.

Remember who makes the decisions/approves the concept of operations, decides to accept or reject ceasefire etc. You can blame the military, but the final decisions belong to the civilian authorities. There is no doubt in my mind that had the order been given to take the strait we could have done it. Now you can debate it, but there is little that Iran could do to stop our military.

Now equate the Iran war with desert storm....Powell was clear, overwhelming power and force...we did not do that in Iran...we could, but we didn't. Trump decided to end the military campaign in favor of an economic one..the blockade.

The military starts with objectives...and the objective is not general "win the war. Objectives are much more precise. I'll equate Iran to Vietnam...you might be too young...the military achieved every objective assigned...the war was lost, not because of military capability, but because the politicians could no longer take the heat at home. I'm not certain that didn't happen here as well.

I can't argue/debate things that didn't happen. I know our capabilities. It's clear to me that taking the strait was not an assigned objective
 

UrHuckleberry

Heisman
Jun 2, 2024
10,144
21,471
113
so let me ask a question...if you're planning a war, what targets do you go after first? Resources in theater are limited....so you can't do everything at the same time, and not that you would.

Remember who makes the decisions/approves the concept of operations, decides to accept or reject ceasefire etc. You can blame the military, but the final decisions belong to the civilian authorities. There is no doubt in my mind that had the order been given to take the strait we could have done it. Now you can debate it, but there is little that Iran could do to stop our military.

Now equate the Iran war with desert storm....Powell was clear, overwhelming power and force...we did not do that in Iran...we could, but we didn't. Trump decided to end the military campaign in favor of an economic one..the blockade.

The military starts with objectives...and the objective is not general "win the war. Objectives are much more precise. I'll equate Iran to Vietnam...you might be too young...the military achieved every objective assigned...the war was lost, not because of military capability, but because the politicians could no longer take the heat at home. I'm not certain that didn't happen here as well.

I can't argue/debate things that didn't happen. I know our capabilities. It's clear to me that taking the strait was not an assigned objective
So here's what I think. I think y'all agree then, but are discussing different things.

You are saying they have achieved every objective they have attempted to achieve. They are saying that the overall strategy that is setting those objectives is flawed. Since you are agree that controlling the strait was not an assigned objective.

Do you think that when it comes to this war, that controlling the strait and all the leverage that it gives should have been an objective?
 

dpic73

Heisman
Jul 27, 2005
32,025
26,494
113
she might want to wait to see the agreement. From lastest reports the money is not coming from the US but from the Gulf States....

I don't know what the answer is either, but people assuming things that they don't know .....

I can remember the days when MTG posts were ridiculed by folks on the left. Now she's become the "darling"...what a little anti trump behavior can bring.
I'm laughing at "darling." I'm posting it because I find in noteworthy to show how magas really feel when they've been ex-communicated. I'd also like to understand why the gulf states would want to give Iran their money?

 

firegiver

Heisman
Sep 10, 2007
73,758
20,388
113
don't disagree, but my point was in response to those that said Trump was being led by netanyahu. So in this deal, trump made it over objections of netanyahu who publicly said it was a "bad deal". That just doesn't seem to me that Trump was being "led"

no more no less. Trump will and has declared victory. I haven't seen the agreement so I'll reserve judgement on whether I feel it was or was not a victory" From what I've read, from other people who have not seen the agreement, it doesn't sound great to me either.
Trump was led into this war by Israel.... are saying he wasn't, because regardless of what we are hearing now, he has been balls deep with BIBi
 

firegiver

Heisman
Sep 10, 2007
73,758
20,388
113
Where do you want to start? Here are more than a few of the lies the D's have been telling:

We'd have a massive number of ground troops in Iran.
Trump was starting World War 3 in Iran.
Trump was going to use nukes.
Oil was going to $150 per barrel.
The U.S. economy will collapse because of oil prices.
The Iranians would outlast Trump.
Iran presented no imminent threat.
Iran can't develop nuclear with missile capabilities.
Iran is winning the war.
Obama didn't give the Iranians cash.
Iran was allowing all of the inspections to be completed prior to Trump taking office.
Trump will be giving $300 billion in government money to rebuild Iran.
What about the lie that the jcpoa was a bad deal?
Trump wishes he could have that deal back.

Are you really 90? I dont want to argue with you and cause elder abuse.
 
  • Like
Reactions: yoshi121374
Jun 16, 2025
3,749
8,034
113
This was not the plan. This is however the real world, where things are evolving. But you bitches are gping to cry even if you have to find fake **** to do it over.


Which is why you are a waste of space as a human.
But, no, you said they were being annihilated at the beginning of this sh itshow. Now we are sending them cash and you cry we are the little bit ches. You have no self there awareness eighth grade Tommy Hilfiger.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pjhawk and Moral

lucas80

Heisman
Jan 30, 2008
13,104
30,785
113
Don’t disagree, the GOP Congress wouldn’t lift a finger to stop him. But if he did try to take $300B illegally it would get stopped via the court system after dem lawsuits.

Congress has the power of the purse, full stop. Even if the majority of Congress don’t care, it is their responsibility and they should get forced to go on record as supporting sending American dollars to Iran to clean up fatties war mess.
1. Congress has abdicated their power of the purse duties, and have shrugged their shoulders to many decisions by Trump to either cut funding, or move around money at will he has no legal authority over. What's another $300 billion?
2. There is currently a $1 billion dollar ball room going up over the grave of the East Wing of the WH that Trump had no authority to proceed with. He's been told to not proceed. He's got crews working 20 hours a day on the project. The courts don't work when the people tasked with enforcing the orders of the court ignore them. The courts rely on good will and people doing the right thing, and they also move too slowly
 

lucas80

Heisman
Jan 30, 2008
13,104
30,785
113
Already setting up UAE as the intermediary to hide the fact it’s us tax dollars going to the Iranian regime.
The administration will need a solid money man to administer the transfers for a modest fee.
Jared Kushner Applause GIF by MOODMAN
 

pjhawk

All-Conference
Oct 13, 2001
1,531
4,520
113
Large Marge is not happy!


I've figured it out now that it wasn't the dollars going to Iran that pissed off MAGA and Republicans about the JCPOA, it was those priceless pallets that Obama/Biden just gave away.

Hundreds of billions of American taxpayer dollars to the mullahs is fine as long as it doesn't get transported via those golden pallets.
 

lucas80

Heisman
Jan 30, 2008
13,104
30,785
113

I don't think it has been discussed enough how awful Trump looked today. He was at the WH jacked up on Diet Coke and watching sweaty, semi nude guys fight each other, then he jumped on AF1 and rage tweeted about trans citizens while crossing the Atlantic, and then served up steaming bowls of word soup to a world leader in front of the cameras. He kept talking and talking unable to make a point, and unwilling to give up the attention.
 

pjhawk

All-Conference
Oct 13, 2001
1,531
4,520
113
Had a decent executive been commander in chief in 2025-26, the time to act was DURING the popular uprising. And with a PLAN to assist anti-regime dissidents seize power. Unfortunately, we have a clown with a clown show cabinet instead - which is why Iran despite getting pummeled and bruised, achieved many of its strategic goals and the U.S. achieved none.
It was a horrible idea by any President. Please don't shine this turd by pretending the execution was the only problem.

There's reasons why no other President has been stupid enough to try and pull this off.
 

wilson reborn

All-Conference
Feb 26, 2009
1,183
2,417
113
I don't think it has been discussed enough how awful Trump looked today. He was at the WH jacked up on Diet Coke and watching sweaty, semi nude guys fight each other, then he jumped on AF1 and rage tweeted about trans citizens while crossing the Atlantic, and then served up steaming bowls of word soup to a world leader in front of the cameras. He kept talking and talking unable to make a point, and unwilling to give up the attention.
Dude, you got the DT virus. There is no vaccine. Just live through it. It will last about two years. there will be vomiting
 

Torbee

Heisman
Sep 13, 2002
12,999
58,980
113
Requiem for the biggest loser. This is a great column by a former soldier:



Donald Trump launched a war against the Islamic Republic, and Iran took everything the U.S. and Israel could dish out. Donald Trump announced 28 times that a “deal” to end the war was imminent. Iran did not make such an announcement even once.

All Iran had to do was point missiles and drones at the Strait of Hormuz and stop the shipment of oil and wait for Trump to cave. Yesterday, he caved.

At this writing, the Strait of Hormuz is still closed, under the firm control of Iran, which can sink any vessel attempting to make transit. Iran’s stockpile of enriched uranium is secure. Its oil and gas industries were not seriously damaged. Kharg Island is not in rubble and surrounded by an oil slick. Iran’s ability to use missiles and drones in long-distance strikes against its neighbors and its declared enemy, Israel, is as secure as it was on February 27, the day before Trump launched his war.

When Trump appeared before the press with Macron, the French president called the agreement “very important for peace.” Trump’s face was impassive, a mask of failure and doom. Not one country at the G-7 responded to Trump’s entreaties to help with his war on Iran. He is not meeting with allies. They are unwilling pallbearers at his funeral.

Trump’s big-bully-on-the-block act is finished. Any threats he makes between now and January of 2029 are hollow, and everyone knows it. Pete Hegseth spent a good portion of his interview on Sunday with Margaret Brennan on “Face the Nation” denying reports that the U.S. has severely diminished its stockpile of high-tech weapons such as the anti-missile Patriots and long-range precision Tomahawk cruise missiles. Brennan challenged Hegseth about how many high-tech weapons the U.S. expended against Iran: “There is a crisis with those stockpiles right now,” she said. Hegseth practically shouted, “That is a manufactured story that the media wants to peddle.” When Brennan reminded him that he had testified before Congress “that it will take years to rebuild those stockpiles,” Hegseth paused and took an audible breath, gathering himself before responding, “You don’t have to read back to me what I testified.”

Trump’s war on Iran turned out to be just another of his many, many lies. As the war wore on, he even stopped using the word, “war,” calling it an “excursion.” Amazingly, his choice of words turned out to be accurate. It wasn’t a real war, even though 3,000 Iranians lost their lives and parts of Iran’s infrastructure and military were damaged but not destroyed. Trump and Hegseth went on an excursion to the Persian Gulf and all they got was an international energy crisis caused by Iran’s closure of the Strait of Hormuz and an embarrassing “deal” that returns everything to where it was on February 27.

Hegseth is just another Crusader who went to Persia and got his **** handed to him. Trump is a bully, but no one fears him anymore. Wait until you see his rally on the Mall on July the 4th. Not even Lee Greenwood and Kid Rock will be able to lift his spirits. His polling isn’t going to bounce back when gas prices come down. Iran beat him. He’s a loser.