The United States Should Exit NATO - Collapse In Real Time - Calls Intensify
- Thread starter fatpiggy
- Start date
Guy who spends two terms shitting on the US’ historical allies gets upset and doesn’t understand why those same allies don’t want to assist the US in an unnecessary war.
especially after we drug them into Iraq and Afghanistan under false pretenses.
especially after we drug them into Iraq and Afghanistan under false pretenses.
Speak for yourself. "We" aren't fascists, so we do still share values with NATO and the rest of the free world. YOU are able to think otherwise.
Reading the first post of this thread and the most recent post from @fatpiggy is so good.
We didn't exactly want to assist in Ukraine either. That's not how alliances work and is exactly Trumps point.
Exit NATO.
With regard to Ukraine, we supplied a non-NATO ally with resources to defend themselves from an invasion.
With regard to Iran, we attacked someone and then begged for help after telling these allies to go eff themselves and fear for their own safety, repeatedly, and not informing them we were about to go to war and harm their interests without their input.
fatpiggy say: "Being bullied into a war we don't want by NATO allies is unacceptable ... we should leave NATO"
fatpiggy say: "Being bullied into a war they don't want by a NATO ally is acceptable and required ... we should leave NATO"
It’s also how WW1 started, and it’s why nations don’t blindly rush into war when a member gets attacked (which we weren’t since we did the attacking.)
So you think Trump blindly rushed into war? I don't think you know much more than anyone else, and I don't think we know the full reasons on why we went to war. I suspect the intelligence won't be released for some time. But we do know that Iran threatened us multiple times and that they were developing weapons that would allow them to deliver on those threats.
I don't care for the war, but the holier than thou stance that they did not pose a threat does not pass the smell test. Iran said it loud and clear they wanted to wipe us off the map. The bully got punched in the nose. If NATO doesn't want to support us when we punch the bully, we will remember that when the bully comes for them. That's right, the bully did come for them and who did they call? The United States.
If they don't pay their bills, and they don't assist in our time of need, and their basic morals are drifting further away from ours, why be in an alliance?
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Because Fatpiggy is trying to come up with a narrative in real time to support decisions he has posted for years that he doesn't agree with.
So in real time, we are watching how little integrity Ole Fastball has.
It's still crazy to see just how little integrity MAGAts have ... I mean, our VP once said Trump could be America's Hitler ... and, then, as soon as he was presented with the chance to have power, he bent the knee.
The nuttiest part of it is the hypocrisy ... they pretended support for Trump and MAGAt was all about draining the swamp ... have to get rid of all the corruption ... all these fat cats in power don't care about us ... they just lie and steal ... use their position for power, influence and personal enrichment. So, they backed the most lyingest, self-promoting, power-hungry POS we've ever had in power ... and he proceeded to personally enrich himself, use his office to benefit friends and those who can grant him favors, spit on all his promises, turn on allies and his own citizens ... and are the MAGAts there, screaming for his virtual head? Nope ... they're going for the ride right along with him. "No new wars! Focus on America! I meant new wars, and if you don't back them, you're not American!" "You'll never take our guns! We'll use them to defend ourselves from your tyranny! We shouldn't have guns, and if you murder us for having them, that's perfectly fine ... it's our fault!"
It's just constant. There's zero humanity left in these folks. Zero integrity. They're willing to adopt any "fake reality" or "alternative truth" in order to ... wait for it ... gain/retain power and benefit from it ... you know ... like the swamp they were supposedly draining.
It would be shameful if we backed out of NATO because of the reckless decisions made by our current President, who just recently threatened to invade the country of one of our own allies, as shocking as that is. If he does back out, he should be immediately impeached and thrown out of office for treating this country and our alliances like they belong to him and him alone, with no regard for the wreckage he'll leave behind for future administrations who certainly won't agree with this decision. F this petulant ahole.
As I was saying. It's another "energy" moment for Germany. Remember the dude with the really bad haircut laughing at Trumps face? And now Germany is at the mercy of the worlds worst governments for their energy. Same thing. Germans making fools of themselves again.
It's just not worth trying to explain the difference to this crowd, but Ukraine was invaded by our enemy who has designs on taking over the whole world.
We attacked Iran multiple times in the last 6 months without trying to make a case for it or without telling our allies. Those allies who have been berated by this President multiple times, told how awful they are, how we don't need them.
Did anyone actually think Europe would always to help attack another Middle Eastern Country and get sucked into another costly war?
Remember when all of MAGA swore the reason to elect Trump was to avoid getting entangled on long wars in the Middle East?
We attacked Iran multiple times in the last 6 months without trying to make a case for it or without telling our allies. Those allies who have been berated by this President multiple times, told how awful they are, how we don't need them.
Did anyone actually think Europe would always to help attack another Middle Eastern Country and get sucked into another costly war?
Remember when all of MAGA swore the reason to elect Trump was to avoid getting entangled on long wars in the Middle East?
Marco gets "it," if "it" is "dem checks" from selling his soul. Again, this isn't complicated ... it's a basic false analogy. If Iran had attacked the US mainland, and was continuing their assault in an effort to annex a portion of it ... then ... yeah ... samesies. But this is us attacking Iran. Over something that allegedly had already been settled. And without any notice, let alone buy-in, from anyone we're now begging for help.
It isn't hard to understand that Ukraine and Iran aren't comparable circumstances. No one who has at least basic reasoning skills, and isn't trying to pull a fast one on mentally infirm people would suggest otherwise. No one is buying it.
Marco is willing to sell his integrity to maintain power. He's the swamp. I supported him for POTUS a decade ago. I made a mistake.
Finland cracking down on free speech.
We just don’t share the same principles as the Europeans. Harder and harder to be in an alliance with them.
We just don’t share the same principles as the Europeans. Harder and harder to be in an alliance with them.
No one can be surprised when Trump exits NATO. It is abundantly clear massive changes are coming to the United States and NATO relationship.
The latest round of not allowing overflight in addition to the denials of the use of airbases has got me off the fence. Time to re-eval NATO.
If it were simply NATO countries not wanting to actively help that's one thing. Its still in our best interests so we can be disappointed in not getting the help from people who should be joining us because its in THEIR interest too, but to actively hinder us? Different story. NATO exists primarily to protect Europe, but in equal parts from our perspective it (used to) provide us us with basing so that WE can project power when its in our own best interest. If, when we need that basing and overflight, we can't depend on it from our "allies", then why should we keep the status quo? Are they true allies or are they strategic partners?
Just like the border not being secured... . It is what it is, It can't be changed. Seems to be wrong, but don't believe your lyin' eyes. NATO is in the same category. We've been providing the deterrance and protection for europe (and canada, and to a lesser extent australia), while they divested of their military and ramped up social programs and the green energy initiative while committing cultural suicide by unfettered mass immigration of people who aren't assimilating. Ah, don't want to contribute the recommended amount of GDP to the common defense? That's okay. We've got the US they'll take care of it.
I say, no longer. That doesn't mean that we turn to isolationalism, but NATO as it currently exists and operates cannot continue.
Edit to add: Australia (non NATO technically)seems to be coming around. They are coming off their 'no nukes" policies and starting to build nuclear sub capability. They are also considering high-end weapons systems purchases . For a fleeting moment there was talk about takign the major step and getting in on the B21 program but i thnk the economics don't make sense, they would do better with other aircraft and long range strike options (missiles, subs etc.)
If it were simply NATO countries not wanting to actively help that's one thing. Its still in our best interests so we can be disappointed in not getting the help from people who should be joining us because its in THEIR interest too, but to actively hinder us? Different story. NATO exists primarily to protect Europe, but in equal parts from our perspective it (used to) provide us us with basing so that WE can project power when its in our own best interest. If, when we need that basing and overflight, we can't depend on it from our "allies", then why should we keep the status quo? Are they true allies or are they strategic partners?
Just like the border not being secured... . It is what it is, It can't be changed. Seems to be wrong, but don't believe your lyin' eyes. NATO is in the same category. We've been providing the deterrance and protection for europe (and canada, and to a lesser extent australia), while they divested of their military and ramped up social programs and the green energy initiative while committing cultural suicide by unfettered mass immigration of people who aren't assimilating. Ah, don't want to contribute the recommended amount of GDP to the common defense? That's okay. We've got the US they'll take care of it.
I say, no longer. That doesn't mean that we turn to isolationalism, but NATO as it currently exists and operates cannot continue.
Edit to add: Australia (non NATO technically)seems to be coming around. They are coming off their 'no nukes" policies and starting to build nuclear sub capability. They are also considering high-end weapons systems purchases . For a fleeting moment there was talk about takign the major step and getting in on the B21 program but i thnk the economics don't make sense, they would do better with other aircraft and long range strike options (missiles, subs etc.)
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There is a limit to what the executive branch can do unilaterally, as certain minimum personnel levels in europe are mandated by the NDAA, but, both the executive branch and congress should re-examine what we are doing as far as NATO is concerned.
The last time we did that materially was in 1991, when the post WWII occupation of Germany was finally ended on paper and the US withdrew about 75% of the forces that it had on the continent.
If we cant use the bases when we need them or have overflight denied when we need it in support of OUR national interests, then we need to re-look at what we are doing. Just like Canada can help european NATO members from where they are at with no forward basing of their vast military, so can we.
Maybe it's time to shrink our footprint in europe and shift resources to shoring up our own Pacific backyard and prioritizing defending our other treaty partners in that region over NATO. European NATO members have enough population and GDP to take primacy for defending themselves and then they can ask us if they need something ...and at that time we can help as much as we see fit.
LOL, Trump Cultists.
www.ms.now
Opinion | Donald Trump is the world’s worst friend
Real friends tell the truth, they don’t enable you when you launch unprovoked wars of aggression against Iran.
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to be honest, I have thought for a long time that given the state of the world today, we should be on a path to reduce our active duty footprint throughout Europe. European nations should now be in the position of defending themselves. Russia is no longer the great "Bear" - just look at what Ukraine has been able to accomplish - although with equipment/weapons from US...that they should be able to buy.
I've posted before, NATO has been playing us for suckers for decades. I've posted some stories about my time as a US rep on some of the panels/advisory groups. Trump, love him or hate him, has been the first president in my lifetime to actually stand up for us.
A few thoughts:
NATO is a defensive alliance where members pledge to come to each other's aid AFTER an attack, not because an unhinged member unilaterally decides to bomb another country to smithereens without consultation or coordination.
We are the only member who has invoked Article V and our allies rallied around us without a second thought and contributed financially and with their blood to our cause(s).
Trump is the only president who has regularly insulted and demeaned our allies and even went so far as to say that he would encourage "Russia to do whatever the hell they want to any NATO country that doesn't pay enough."
We have openly flirted with the far-right parties in their countries while ignoring their current leadership altogether at times (See JD and his meeting with the AfD)
We have now killed 175 people at a girls school and Iran is costing other Gulf countries billions of dollars and setting back their energy industries for years to come because of our actions so it's understandable why NATO countries wouldn't want to put a target on their backs due to a war of choice that we started without any consultation with our friends.
NATO is in a tough spot because they have to balance what's best for them with the desires of a lame-duck madman who won't even be around in a couple years and we all know the Ukraine war is still going on, which has been Europe's focus and it needs to stay that way until the war is settled, not be drawn into another potential World War at the same time.
If you want to have friends you need to behave like one. Our NATO allies are our friends and we would be stupid to lose them because our current president is a bully who treats them like ****. We all know that our work will be cut out for us repairing the damage when this admin is over so we can't allow him to make it worse for future administrations that will certainly disagree with his actions.
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Trump's net approval on key issues
Foreign affairs: -28 (new low)
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This reads like Fatpiggy's therapy session where he's trying his best not to deal with the trauma that his cognitive dissonance is causing him.
Hey man, its not your fault that Trump is a lying fool and that you fell for it.
Hey man, its not your fault that Trump is a lying fool and that you fell for it.
I will speak plainly to you @fatpiggy
You don't understand enough about geopolitics or history to claim we should leave NATO. Neither does Donald Trump. He's a rascal who's barely read anything, which has been proven many times. He's really great at telling people what they want to hear and disinfranchising those who criticize him. That's it, those are his skills. He's not a good business man. He's not a good leader, unless you fall for the strong man cult stuff.
NATO was the formed to bring stability after WWII. We invested a ton of money and time into doing so and it gifted us with so much power and money in the long term. It cemented the USA as THE global power. Leaving it, will tail spin us right into the ground and force our economy and way of life into a permanent easing.
The dollar will be devastated. Our purchasing power will plummet. Our government will go bankrupt and we will be seeing each other in the bread lines. Im not being hyperbolic. The debt the GDP ratio would be catastrophic.
You would have to be an absolute MORON to throw away a profitable investment like NATO an absolute moron.
You don't understand enough about geopolitics or history to claim we should leave NATO. Neither does Donald Trump. He's a rascal who's barely read anything, which has been proven many times. He's really great at telling people what they want to hear and disinfranchising those who criticize him. That's it, those are his skills. He's not a good business man. He's not a good leader, unless you fall for the strong man cult stuff.
NATO was the formed to bring stability after WWII. We invested a ton of money and time into doing so and it gifted us with so much power and money in the long term. It cemented the USA as THE global power. Leaving it, will tail spin us right into the ground and force our economy and way of life into a permanent easing.
The dollar will be devastated. Our purchasing power will plummet. Our government will go bankrupt and we will be seeing each other in the bread lines. Im not being hyperbolic. The debt the GDP ratio would be catastrophic.
You would have to be an absolute MORON to throw away a profitable investment like NATO an absolute moron.
We may see each other in bread lines in the future, but it won't be because we leave NATO.
I’m conflicted here because … we engaged Iran without our allies (sans Israel) and Im assuming we didn’t consult with them before we did so. I’m also assuming that we under estimated (unsure to what degree) Iran’s capabilities when it came to the Straight….. soooooooo I understand Europe’s hesitance in “helping us out” here. We started it …
buuuuuuuuut I also think the Europeans/NATO have been taking advantage of us … at least since the late 70s- early 80s and certainly since the USSR fell. They LOVE to belittle us for our healthcare system, University costs, and other social programs …. however they were quite content to grow their social programs knowing they could live under the umbrella of safety the US provided and knew we would shoulder the burden of defense costs.
not sure how Iran will play out long term, but I don’t think it’s controversial to think that this open “conflict” will be over by the end of April if not A LOT sooner. What comes after is less clear …. but I think Iran officially surrenders in the next couple of weeks, the Straight is open and clear under US control … soooooo does the US allow oil deliveries to Europe after we control the Straight? Do we levy some kind of tax/tariff for European bound tankers???
If we did either of the above … I could see THAT being the catalyst for WW3
buuuuuuuuut I also think the Europeans/NATO have been taking advantage of us … at least since the late 70s- early 80s and certainly since the USSR fell. They LOVE to belittle us for our healthcare system, University costs, and other social programs …. however they were quite content to grow their social programs knowing they could live under the umbrella of safety the US provided and knew we would shoulder the burden of defense costs.
not sure how Iran will play out long term, but I don’t think it’s controversial to think that this open “conflict” will be over by the end of April if not A LOT sooner. What comes after is less clear …. but I think Iran officially surrenders in the next couple of weeks, the Straight is open and clear under US control … soooooo does the US allow oil deliveries to Europe after we control the Straight? Do we levy some kind of tax/tariff for European bound tankers???
If we did either of the above … I could see THAT being the catalyst for WW3
Trump will receive the Order of Lenin for breaking the back of the western economic and military order- something that no other comrade has been able to accomplish. The parade in Red Square will be HUUUGGGEEE. May even get an award from China. Two awards no one else has done before. Something no one saw coming. Imagine statues and golden urinals worldwide all housed in gaudy oversized casino looking monuments to TRUMP.
… maybe thats the play though?
talking “tough” about Russia and China, but maybe the play is to carve up the world between just those three countries. I mean think about it … if the US, Russia, and China brokered deals and allied with each other … with the understanding that the US “owns” the America’s and secures the Middle East, Russia “Owns” Europe, and China “owns” Asia/South Pacific (split Africa between the 3) … the rest of the world couldn’t do anything about it … besides starting a Nuclear holocaust ….
I dunno … whatever is going on … I don’t like it