OT: NJ Gov't to shut down #1 Disc Golf course in NJ

[yessir321]

https://www.change.org/p/save-staff...65BHSjt_L4berFdoFnhxXRfY3u_csU3FugiTLsX1Ta5jo

Really sad situation. Local disc golfers took an abandoned piece of land, made it into something spectacular. The disc golf pro tour made a stop here last year, the first major tournament in NJ since the 1979 Frisbee world championships at Rutgers. Now a local winery is opening next door and the owner wants to shut down quite literally the most popular course in the state. 30,000+ annual players.

If you don't mind taking 2 seconds to sign this that's be great but more importantly, please do not support "Saddlehill Winery" or Bill Green in any way. This would genuinely be devastating for the local community

 

[RUforester72]

“Abandoned piece of land”??? Were they homesteading? Or trespassing? Who owns the land? Key issue.

 

[tom1944]

Were there a number of disc golfers who wandered all over his property destroying his grapes and causing other problems?

Or did he just happen to review arcane Green Acres statutes to ruin other peoples fun?

 

[yessir321]

“Abandoned piece of land”??? Were they homesteading? Or trespassing? Who owns the land? Key issue.

my apologies. it is parkland owned by the state and for 10 years has been on the NJ state park website

 

[Ty Webb_rivals67856]

“Abandoned piece of land”??? Were they homesteading? Or trespassing? Who owns the land? Key issue.

I believe the state purchased it years ago and just made it a park. Apparently, there is confusion on the DEPs ruling as to the proper usage for the property - active versus passive usage. Apparently disc golf is considered passive usage and as such, can't be done on the property.

 

[RU848789]

I believe the state purchased it years ago and just made it a park. Apparently, there is confusion on the DEPs ruling as to the proper usage for the property - active versus passive usage. Apparently disc golf is considered passive usage and as such, can't be done on the property.

No, it's the opposite. The park is preserved for passive use and the disc golf course was accepted as passive use when installed over 10 years ago and this has not been an issue for the DEP until now, when this neighbor, who is not impacted at all by the course (there's a fence and nobody ever gets near his property), complained. There's a lot of "grey" around whether DG is considered passive or active use. Here's the key paragraph from the petition, which is really well written, IMO. Also, the main use of the park is the Stafford Trail, which goes by an old farm and lots of people like walking it and it is not impacted at all by the DG course. This looks like a power grab to many, as there are supposedly scenarios where the park can be shut down and then bought.

The DEP’s stated reasoning for this unnecessary ruling involves the original deed restrictions and the state definition of passive recreation. Given that Stafford Woods was purchased with state funds, these restrictions must be followed. However, upon a further inspection of DEP classifications, the distinction between active and passive recreation seems entirely arbitrary and capricious. Group picnics are considered active recreation, while cross country skiing is considered passive recreation. If you’ve participated in either of these activities, you will understand that this distinction could not possibly be further from the truth. Furthermore, the DEP conducted inspections of the property in 2014, 2017, and 2020 as a part of their green acres program. None of these inspections found any wrongdoing at the Stafford Woods property, indicating that the state had already acquiesced to the property’s use many years prior to the claim from Mr. Green. When the course was first installed in 2012, disc golf was considered passive recreation, hence the approval of the course. Given the nature of the initial approval and property acquiescence laws in New Jersey, it is our belief that the classification of disc golf as passive recreation should stand — as it is considered so in numerous other states.

 

[RU848789]

https://www.change.org/p/save-staff...65BHSjt_L4berFdoFnhxXRfY3u_csU3FugiTLsX1Ta5jo

Really sad situation. Local disc golfers took an abandoned piece of land, made it into something spectacular. The disc golf pro tour made a stop here last year, the first major tournament in NJ since the 1979 Frisbee world championships at Rutgers. Now a local winery is opening next door and the owner wants to shut down quite literally the most popular course in the state. 30,000+ annual players.

If you don't mind taking 2 seconds to sign this that's be great but more importantly, please do not support "Saddlehill Winery" or Bill Green in any way. This would genuinely be devastating for the local community

Thanks for starting this - was thinking about it. Terrible decision by the NJDEP even if I never played disc golf - it's just illogical. As you said, it's the #1 rated course in NJ and gets a huge amount of traffic and players absolutely patronize many local businesses (every time I go down there to play I do).

FYI, the Frisbee Worlds were 1982 - I competed in almost every event, doing well in distance and MTA and decently in disc golf, since the baskets were installed in 1982 for the event, since before then it was an object course (throwing at trees).

Are you playing at the tourney there next weekend? I can only play in the Am day Saturday, given the RU game is on Sunday when the pros are playing.

 

[CollegeSenior]

The lawyers and courts are going to have fun with this.

Is frisbee golf active or passive use? I’m glad I don’t have to pick a side.

 

[cicero grimes]

The owner of the winery was probably a donor to the gov. If true that would explain a lot.

 

[FoxRU]

https://www.change.org/p/save-staff...65BHSjt_L4berFdoFnhxXRfY3u_csU3FugiTLsX1Ta5jo

Really sad situation. Local disc golfers took an abandoned piece of land, made it into something spectacular. The disc golf pro tour made a stop here last year, the first major tournament in NJ since the 1979 Frisbee world championships at Rutgers. Now a local winery is opening next door and the owner wants to shut down quite literally the most popular course in the state. 30,000+ annual players.

If you don't mind taking 2 seconds to sign this that's be great but more importantly, please do not support "Saddlehill Winery" or Bill Green in any way. This would genuinely be devastating for the local community

Signed the petition and sent it on to Ben Askren (Olympic Wrestler, Former MMA fighter and world class disc golfer). He responded. Hopefully he will share it with his network of friends and drum up more support.

 

[tom1944]

The owner of the winery was probably a donor to the gov. If true that would explain a lot.

He is a resident of Boca Raton Florida and a registered Republican

 

[RU Husky]

He is a resident of Boca Raton Florida and a registered Republican

Must be a case of sour grapes for him.

 

[koleszar]

I believe the state purchased it years ago and just made it a park. Apparently, there is confusion on the DEPs ruling as to the proper usage for the property - active versus passive usage. Apparently disc golf is considered passive usage and as such, can't be done on the property.

Here's what I don't get, the NJDEP inspected the property in 2014, 2017 and again in 2020 while the disc golf course was there and found no wrong doing. This guy complains this year and now they find wrong doing? Sounds like somebody with deep pockets found someone else's pocket here.

 

[tico brown]

I wouldn’t be surprised if this land turned into a luxury McMansion complex, a multi Amazon warehouse complex, or something else for politicians/ developers to get rich off of.

 

[tom1944]

Maybe the DEP was willing to let it go but this guy with deep pockets said I am going to take the issue to court. The lawyers at the Division of Law probably told the DEP it is a case they will not win based on the current statute.

We do not want government agencies throwing money away on cases they cannot win. Seems to me that this is something the disc golfers have a chance to get the statute changed.

I doubt the DEP would be against it.

 

[vkj91]

Sounds like another example of Nj government being dysfunctional

 

[angmo]

One would think a business that has 30k+ potential clients working up a thirst next door would embrace this. This winery will never make a profit.

 

[mdk02]

I wouldn’t be surprised if this land turned into a luxury McMansion complex, a multi Amazon warehouse complex, or something else for politicians/ developers to get rich off of.

The ultimate irony would be no Mt. Laurel housing.

 

[tom1944]

Sounds like another example of Nj government being dysfunctional

How so?

They looked the other in a way no harm no foul way until someone complained.

Either the statute gets changed or they have to enforce the law.

It’s like a cop not enforcing a 25 mph speed on a local street until someone complains.

I bet the statute gets updated and they get to continue playing disc golf.

 

[yessir321]

Thanks for starting this - was thinking about it. Terrible decision by the NJDEP even if I never played disc golf - it's just illogical. As you said, it's the #1 rated course in NJ and gets a huge amount of traffic and players absolutely patronize many local businesses (every time I go down there to play I do).

FYI, the Frisbee Worlds were 1982 - I competed in almost every event, doing well in distance and MTA and decently in disc golf, since the baskets were installed in 1982 for the event, since before then it was an object course (throwing at trees).

Are you playing at the tourney there next weekend? I can only play in the Am day Saturday, given the RU game is on Sunday when the pros are playing.

I’m playing Sunday yea.

This blows man. Derek fell and I were working on an interstate championship next year between there and Tyler.

 

[RUPete]

Thanks for starting this - was thinking about it. Terrible decision by the NJDEP even if I never played disc golf - it's just illogical. As you said, it's the #1 rated course in NJ and gets a huge amount of traffic and players absolutely patronize many local businesses (every time I go down there to play I do).

FYI, the Frisbee Worlds were 1982 - I competed in almost every event, doing well in distance and MTA and decently in disc golf, since the baskets were installed in 1982 for the event, since before then it was an object course (throwing at trees).

Are you playing at the tourney there next weekend? I can only play in the Am day Saturday, given the RU game is on Sunday when the pros are playing.

That’s what I don’t get. Why shut something down that brings people in who can potentially support local businesses? The only explanation can be a money grab.

 

[Jtung230]

On my Rutgers tour with my oldest, I learned RU is the birthplace of DG.

 

[Retired711]

The disc golf people can go to court if they want and challenge the DEP's decision. It sounds like the key question is whether DEP is defining "passive use" correctly, and it also sounds like the DEP has been quite inconsistent in defining it.

 

[newell138]

Maybe they should put up some windmills instead of wasting land on a bunch of hippies and their frisbees

 

[NealPageNJ]

Change petitions are basically worthless. Really should do paper and pencil petition to send to local political leaders.

That said. This sounds like a pretty crummy thing to happen. If the course existed for x amount of years shouldn’t it be permitted for the use? Good luck. We need more places for humans to be active.

 

[iReC89]

Seems an odd strategy to argue you meet passive deed restrictions while claiming 30,000 visitors and being a global DG tourist attraction.

Best way to preserve it in some form seems to be to modify the course or access rules to cut visitors

 

[MulletCork]

“luxury apartment rentals” coming soon! Maybe some moderate income housing too.

 

[Bagarocks]

I bet if ya get some trans people up their playing, they change the definition from passive to Active.

 

[RU to the Core]

Just did a google maps looksee. It’s like the only patch of woods surrounded by suburbia and that winery. Yeah def a land grab to turn that into something for profit. Also looks like a really woodsy disc golf course from up above.

 

[Retired711]

The land in question is in Voorhees just across from Cherry Hill. I live maybe five minutes away. The land was purchased in 2008 by the Trust for Public Land and the Township of Voorhees for preservation as open space rather than have it become yet one more shopping center. There is absolutely no legal way to use that land forMcMansions or any other private use. The dispute here is strictly over how to use that publicly owned open space. Whatever else can be said about the land, it was *not* abandoned; it was purchased precisely to be kept as open space.https://www.tpl.org/media-room/stafford-woods-added-voorhees-parkland-nj

 

[T2Kplus20]

https://www.change.org/p/save-staff...65BHSjt_L4berFdoFnhxXRfY3u_csU3FugiTLsX1Ta5jo

Really sad situation. Local disc golfers took an abandoned piece of land, made it into something spectacular. The disc golf pro tour made a stop here last year, the first major tournament in NJ since the 1979 Frisbee world championships at Rutgers. Now a local winery is opening next door and the owner wants to shut down quite literally the most popular course in the state. 30,000+ annual players.

If you don't mind taking 2 seconds to sign this that's be great but more importantly, please do not support "Saddlehill Winery" or Bill Green in any way. This would genuinely be devastating for the local community

Because dish golf is lame.

 

[RU848789]

The land in question is in Voorhees just across from Cherry Hill. I live maybe five minutes away. The land was purchased in 2008 by the Trust for Public Land and the Township of Voorhees for preservation as open space rather than have it become yet one more shopping center. There is absolutely no legal way to use that land forMcMansions or any other private use. The dispute here is strictly over how to use that publicly owned open space. Whatever else can be said about the land, it was *not* abandoned; it was purchased precisely to be kept as open space.https://www.tpl.org/media-room/stafford-woods-added-voorhees-parkland-nj

Are you ready for some pro bono work in exchange for disc golf lessons or free beer? Only half joking as the guys that run the course are looking for legal help...

 

[RU848789]

On my Rutgers tour with my oldest, I learned RU is the birthplace of DG.

You were misinformed. Disc golf was "invented" all over the country in the 1960s, in parallel, by groups putting together "object courses" where folks threw at trees and telelphone poles (my neighbor and I put together a little 6-hole course on our street in the late 70s), but it wasn't an organized sport in any way. Most consider Rochester, NY to be the home of disc golf, as it was the first organized group regularly playing tourneys in the early 1970s.

Ed Headrick, who was an exec at Wham-O became the "father of disc golf" for his efforts in designing/patenting the first disc golf baskets and later by quitting his job to become a full time advocate for driving the development of the sport and the PDGA in the late 70s and 80s. The course at RU was an object course, built in 1978, which was converted to baskets in 1982 for the World Frisbee Championships held at RU in 1982 (competitions in a dozen or so frisbee events including disc golf).

https://www.pdga.com/history

 

[CollegeSenior]

On my Rutgers tour with my oldest, I learned RU is the birthplace of DG

In some quarters it is mistakenly believed that ultimate frisbee was invented at RU. Somebody seems to have further mixed that up with disc golf.

 

[yessir321]

Because dish golf is lame.

I mean I wouldn’t expect our resident complainer to think any different..

 

[Steve91562]

Can't they just build a buffer between the two properties? Little sympathy for the winery since they purchased the property knowing the neighbor's activities.

 

[yessir321]

Seems an odd strategy to argue you meet passive deed restrictions while claiming 30,000 visitors and being a global DG tourist attraction.

Best way to preserve it in some form seems to be to modify the course or access rules to cut visitors

Here’s where it gets weird. NJ had inspected that course many times over the years for approval purposes. Last year in 2022 Stafford Woods hosted a ‘Silver Series’ event at Stafford woods for the disc golf pro tour that local officials approved knowing full well there would be spectators, venders, added cash for payouts, and quite literally thousands of people on the course. They had no issue with it.

Now a new winery is going in, the owner of said winery made complaints, and now it’s an issue? Oh no, someone got paid off for sure

 

[PSU_Nut_rivals17625]

In some quarters it is mistakenly believed that ultimate frisbee was invented at RU. Somebody seems to have further mixed that up with disc golf.

Sounds kind of like the thousands of frats out there that claim to be the inspiration for animal house.

 

[yessir321]

You were misinformed. Disc golf was "invented" all over the country in the 1960s, in parallel, by groups putting together "object courses" where folks threw at trees and telelphone poles (my neighbor and I put together a little 6-hole course on our street in the late 70s), but it wasn't an organized sport in any way. Most consider Rochester, NY to be the home of disc golf, as it was the first organized group regularly playing tourneys in the early 1970s.

Ed Headrick, who was an exec at Wham-O became the "father of disc golf" for his efforts in designing/patenting the first disc golf baskets and later by quitting his job to become a full time advocate for driving the development of the sport and the PDGA in the late 70s and 80s. The course at RU was an object course, built in 1978, which was converted to baskets in 1982 for the World Frisbee Championships held at RU in 1982 (competitions in a dozen or so frisbee events including disc golf).

https://www.pdga.com/history

Headrick also invented the Frisbee for Whamo.

When people talk about the ‘birth of disc golf’, really the first name that anyone should mention is steady ed

 

[Jtung230]

The land in question is in Voorhees just across from Cherry Hill. I live maybe five minutes away. The land was purchased in 2008 by the Trust for Public Land and the Township of Voorhees for preservation as open space rather than have it become yet one more shopping center. There is absolutely no legal way to use that land forMcMansions or any other private use. The dispute here is strictly over how to use that publicly owned open space. Whatever else can be said about the land, it was *not* abandoned; it was purchased precisely to be kept as open space.https://www.tpl.org/media-room/stafford-woods-added-voorhees-parkland-nj

Always appreciate the facts.