OT: Law school ?

[Knight Shift]

Someone give him advice about how hard it is to become a partner in a "big" firm .

True.

With a 168 LSAT, he can probably do better than Rutgers both in the NYC and Philly law firms. The prime reason to go to Rutgers would be for the lesser tuition, and, with a 168 LSAT, he could probably get a semi-free ride, thus lowering the cost even more. But there's a trade-off in terms of job opportunities unless he does really, really well at law school. His LSAT (and the fact that he has a background in a rigorous major like aeronautical engineering (as opposed, say, to feminist studies) and that he went to an excellent undergraduate school like Purdue (most Rutgers law students went to far lesser institutions)) gives him a very good chance of doing that, but it's still a crapshoot.

IMO, doing "better" may not really matter if he wants to practice patent law.

Moreover, it is hard to *stay* a partner. It used to be that being a partner was like having tenure as a professor, but no more. Law firms now get rid of partners all the time. Partners are pressured to bring business in, and that requires a big investment of time and energy.

True. So why forego a less expensive, yet fine school like Rutgers to go the prestige route?

Because your grandson majored in aeronautical engineering, he might want to become a patent lawyer like @Knight Shift. As he indicates, law school "prestige" matters less there -- what's important is whether you're skilled in both law and technology.

Exactly. But I also don't want to give the young man a bum steer. He may want to change fields or become a judge, and law school pedigree will matter.
I detailed what I like about my job. One more thing that I like-I can work when I want to, where I want to and how I want to, as long as I meet my client requirements and deadlines. The same may be true in other fields of law, but if the OP's grandson wants to pursue patent litigation (as opposed to patent "prosecution" (writing patents and interacting with the United States Patent Office), working remotely and when/how you want to is more difficult. I like my freedom. So do the other attorneys in our office. We don't care if/when attorneys come to the office. We do care that we produce quality work and meet client deadlines. Happy attorneys do that, and it seems many of us are happy working remotely.

 

[NotInRHouse_anon]

You are absolutely right that everyone has to think through carefully why he or she wants to go through law school. Being a lawyer is *very* hard work and many lawyers would freely admit they don't enjoy practicing law.

Something like half of people with law degrees don't practice law. Some people go into law school looking at it like a different kind of MBA that will get you a unique and more prestigious job, but some of that is people who hold contempt for firm life or were jaded by public interest or government work.

 

[NotInRHouse_anon]

Not a law guy . I always thought the “small” lawyer could do well. The guy that everyone in town goes to for wills, real estate closings . Maybe even a divorce here or there . Or some traffic court BS at municipal .
Once in a while get into the state civil court and motion and fee clients up the A$$z
I would think many of these guys are well into the six figures net . No ? And for them the law school wouldn’t matter ?

It depends where you are. If you are niche divorce attorney in Colts Neck or Rumson probably.

If you are the only game in town in a rural area, you might not clear six figures, and there is a major attorney shortage for those kinds of jobs.

 

[NotInRHouse_anon]

With a 168 LSAT, he can probably do better than Rutgers both in the NYC and Philly law firms. The prime reason to go to Rutgers would be for the lesser tuition, and, with a 168 LSAT, he could probably get a semi-free ride, thus lowering the cost even more. But there's a trade-off in terms of job opportunities unless he does really, really well at law school. His LSAT (and the fact that he has a background in a rigorous major like aeronautical engineering (as opposed, say, to feminist studies) and that he went to an excellent undergraduate school like Purdue (most Rutgers law students went to far lesser institutions)) gives him a very good chance of doing that, but it's still a crapshoot.

I would guess the biggest feeder school for Rutgers Law is Rutgers-NB so I am not sure that is correct. I know a lot of people that went to law school there and many went to RU-NB or peer schools (which i would consider Purdue to be).

 

[NotInRHouse_anon]

True.

IMO, doing "better" may not really matter if he wants to practice patent law.

True. So why forego a less expensive, yet fine school like Rutgers to go the prestige route?

Exactly. But I also don't want to give the young man a bum steer. He may want to change fields or become a judge, and law school pedigree will matter.
I detailed what I like about my job. One more thing that I like-I can work when I want to, where I want to and how I want to, as long as I meet my client requirements and deadlines. The same may be true in other fields of law, but if the OP's grandson wants to pursue patent litigation (as opposed to patent "prosecution" (writing patents and interacting with the United States Patent Office), working remotely and when/how you want to is more difficult. I like my freedom. So do the other attorneys in our office. We don't care if/when attorneys come to the office. We do care that we produce quality work and meet client deadlines. Happy attorneys do that, and it seems many of us are happy working remotely.

If he has a 168 and good grades in engineering, I think he'll get scholarships to even more prestigious schools, and perhaps ones with less strings attached to the scholarship.

Does he want to live in NY/NJ? We're assuming that. But if he could establish residency in Indiana, he might get a scholarship to IU which is a pretty prestigious law school. Maybe he's opposed to that as a Purdue grad, but something to think about.

 

[Frabjous_rivals]

Where you go to law school really doesn’t matter much. I’ve known first-rate lawyers from Rutgers, Pitt, Widener and Fordham, and stinkers from Yale and Harvard.

 

[Retired711]

Something like half of people with law degrees don't practice law. Some people go into law school looking at it like a different kind of MBA that will get you a unique and more prestigious job, but some of that is people who hold contempt for firm life or were jaded by public interest or government work.

I'm not sure that's right. The source I've linked It says something a little different: that 51% of employed recent graduates are in law firms. Another quarter is in either government or corporations. In neither case does that mean they're not practicing law. The vast majority of law students think they are heading for law practice of some kind. Many end their career doing something else, but that's not their initial objective. https://www.abajournal.com/web/arti...grads-practice-in-law-firms-nalp-report-finds

 

[koolraddad]

Where you go to law school really doesn’t matter much. I’ve known first-rate lawyers from Rutgers, Pitt, Widener and Fordham, and stinkers from Yale and Harvard.

I agree and disagree with this. Where you go to law school will have a lot to do with your first job. After that, not so much. The other thing is, most who go to Yale and Harvard type schools, don't know how to communicate. They are book smart, but common sense deprived. Not all, but most. It also depends on what the person intends to do with their degree.

 

[Retired711]

I agree and disagree with this. Where you go to law school will have a lot to do with your first job. After that, not so much. The other thing is, most who go to Yale and Harvard type schools, don't know how to communicate. They are book smart, but common sense deprived. Not all, but most. It also depends on what the person intends to do with their degree.

I mostly agree with the first three sentences. But where you get your first job will influence what the possibilities are for your next job.

 

[Knight Shift]

I agree and disagree with this. Where you go to law school will have a lot to do with your first job. After that, not so much. The other thing is, most who go to Yale and Harvard type schools, don't know how to communicate. They are book smart, but common sense deprived. Not all, but most. It also depends on what the person intends to do with their degree.

Also, the Yale and Harvard types tend to be very entitled and think they can advance because of the diploma on their wall. Have seen lower tier law school grads outwork and run circles around these types.

 

[Retired711]

Also, the Yale and Harvard types tend to be very entitled and think they can advance because of the diploma on their wall. Have seen lower tier law school grads outwork and run circles around these types.

Many of them *do* "advance because of the diploma on their wall. Of the nine Supreme Court justices, only one did not go to Harvard or Yale -- and before Justice Barrett got on the Court, every justice had gone to those schools (caveat: Ruth Bader Ginsburg started at Harvard, but got her degree at Columbia because she followed her husband to NYC. OTOH, Columbia is the same kind of school.) Even leaving aside whether one agrees or disagrees with the Court's decisions, the similarity of their backgrounds is, IMHO, a problem.

 

[Knight Shift]

Many of them *do* "advance because of the diploma on their wall. Of the nine Supreme Court justices, only one did not go to Harvard or Yale -- and before Justice Barrett got on the Court, every justice had gone to those schools (caveat: Ruth Bader Ginsburg started at Harvard, but got her degree at Columbia because she followed her husband to NYC. OTOH, Columbia is the same kind of school.) Even leaving aside whether one agrees or disagrees with the Court's decisions, the similarity of their backgrounds is, IMHO, a problem.

Agree 100% on that. Putting ideology aside, I was quite pleased to see Justice Barrett confirmed, first because the Court needed more diversity, and they got it in two ways. There seem to be two types going to the Ivies- privileged kids who are legacies or whose families have connections and affirmative action admits. Again, not a recipe for drawing from diverse backgrounds. But I digress.

There are only 9 of those jobs available. I would not make my decision to go to an Ivy and put myself deep in debt on the chance of making Supreme Court Justice someday. I don't thin that is what you were getting at. Sorry for the diversion.

 

[Retired711]

Agree 100% on that. Putting ideology aside, I was quite pleased to see Justice Barrett confirmed, first because the Court needed more diversity, and they got it in two ways. There seem to be two types going to the Ivies- privileged kids who are legacies or whose families have connections and affirmative action admits. Again, not a recipe for drawing from diverse backgrounds. But I digress.

There are only 9 of those jobs available. I would not make my decision to go to an Ivy and put myself deep in debt on the chance of making Supreme Court Justice someday. I don't thin that is what you were getting at. Sorry for the diversion.

I'm sorry, too -- I shouldn't have brought it up. But there are plenty of jobs for which having an Ivy League degree is, to say the least, very helpful. At the same time, there are lots of graduates of non-prestigious law schools who outshine a lot of graduates of prestigious schools.There are many skills that do not correlate with the quality of one's law school or law school grades. For one thing, willingness to work hard is much more important to success as a lawyer than the ability to do well on undergraduate or law school exams.

Yet I stick with my original point: it's almost always worth it to go to a prestigious school not because it will make you a better lawyer, but because it will open more doors, especially at graduation.

 

[knightru]

On RU Law … a 168 would result in an offer of a full scholly. 155–156 has been the avg the last 5-10 years.

by comparison - I think UPenn’s avg LSAT is 168-169.

 

[Retired711]

On RU Law … a 168 would result in an offer of a full scholly. 155–156 has been the avg the last 5-10 years.

by comparison - I think UPenn’s avg LSAT is 168-169.

Penn says its 25/50/75 numbers are 167/172/173. The GPA is 3.60/3.90/3.93. So a 168 gives an applicant a shot. BTW, Penn says that 75% of the entering class was out of college one or more years. https://www.law.upenn.edu/admissions/jd/entering-class-profile.php

Rutgers says annual tuition and fees for a full-time in-state student are roughly $30,500. Penn is at about $72,000. Unsurprisingly, Rutgers stresses its relative affordability in its marketing.

Notice that the 170 LSAT students are overwhelmingly going to Penn, despite the high tuition, rather than Rutgers. The marketplace has spoken, and what it is saying is that the prestige of going to Penn is worth the extra cost, as high as it is.

 

[JDNB]

I scored a 167, chose Rutgers on a full ride rather than the expensive NY schools I also got into with no funding, and successfully made it into “big law” and make as much as my peers from the NY schools with none of the debt. It’s a riskier approach as those big jobs aren’t as easy to come by from a school like Rutgers, but through networking and good grades it’s still possible. Happy to talk to him about my path if he prefers (graduated in the last 6 years), just send me a message if so.

Thanks for your offer. He finishes up this semester. I have forward the above to him.

 

[Plum Street]

this thread is kinda like going to alabama or rutgers to play football .
choose wisely

 

[Retired711]

Penn says its 25/50/75 numbers are 167/172/173. The GPA is 3.60/3.90/3.93. So a 168 gives an applicant a shot. BTW, Penn says that 75% of the entering class was out of college one or more years. https://www.law.upenn.edu/admissions/jd/entering-class-profile.php

Rutgers says annual tuition and fees for a full-time in-state student are roughly $30,500. Penn is at about $72,000. Unsurprisingly, Rutgers stresses its relative affordability in its marketing.

Notice that the 170 LSAT students are overwhelmingly going to Penn, despite the high tuition, rather than Rutgers. The marketplace has spoken, and what it is saying is that the prestige of going to Penn is worth the extra cost, as high as it is.

Let me pile on again. Tuition and fees at Villanova Law are $47,000 annually, about $17,000 greater than Rutgers Law. The entering classes at Rutgers Law and Villanova Law have similar credentials. In other words, the market thinks that the $17,000 difference in annual cost is worth being at Villanova instead of Rutgers.

 

[T2Kplus20]

I agree and disagree with this. Where you go to law school will have a lot to do with your first job. After that, not so much.

MBA is exactly the same. The flashier university name on the diploma helps with door #1, but after that, it's all about you and your performance/skills.

 

[willisneverrana43]

Most law students dislike law school . . .

Only time I ever liked school.

 

[NotInRHouse_anon]

I'm not sure that's right. The source I've linked It says something a little different: that 51% of employed recent graduates are in law firms. Another quarter is in either government or corporations. In neither case does that mean they're not practicing law. The vast majority of law students think they are heading for law practice of some kind. Many end their career doing something else, but that's not their initial objective. https://www.abajournal.com/web/arti...grads-practice-in-law-firms-nalp-report-finds

Recent law grads. Not overall

 

[Retired711]

Recent law grads. Not overall

Yes, but the link (which is about recent law grads only) makes clear the 51% figure is only about law firms, not the practice of law generally. Lots of lawyers don't work in firms.

 

[NotInRHouse_anon]

Yes, but the link (which is about recent law grads only) makes clear the 51% figure is only about law firms, not the practice of law generally. Lots of lawyers don't work in firms.

Sure. If anything I think the government jobs can be more exhausting depending on what they are. Prosecutors and worse yet, public defenders, who have big firm hours and duties and then maybe if they're lucky, a teacher's salary.

 

[Retired711]

Sure. If anything I think the government jobs can be more exhausting depending on what they are. Prosecutors and worse yet, public defenders, who have big firm hours and duties and then maybe if they're lucky, a teacher's salary.

Government jobs can be more or less exhausting depending what they are. A fair number of government jobs are 9 to 5. I know a very fine lawyer who moved to a government job because she felt her adolescent child needed her to be able to spend a lot of time at home. Her job was demanding -- but at least she could leave at quitting time.

 

[NotInRHouse_anon]

Government jobs can be more or less exhausting depending what they are. A fair number of government jobs are 9 to 5. I know a very fine lawyer who moved to a government job because she felt her adolescent child needed her to be able to spend a lot of time at home. Her job was demanding -- but at least she could leave at quitting time.

Again it would depend, working for a state/federal agency can be less exhausting. Sometimes they can be considered practice, sometimes not. A lot of variations.

 

[RU848789]

Because your grandson majored in aeronautical engineering, he might want to become a patent lawyer like @Knight Shift. As he indicates, law school "prestige" matters less there -- what's important is whether you're skilled in both law and technology.

One other thing with regard to patent law, especially since the grandson graduated with an eng'g degree from Purdue, which has a very good eng'g school: given that, he might want to strongly consider putting law school off for a few years and working in the eng'g field to hone his technical chops, which will absolutely make him a better patent lawyer in a highly technical field. I had several colleagues at Merck, who spent 4-6 years doing eng'g/science work and then went to law school, becoming patent lawyers, who then were hired into Pharma as patent lawyers, making pretty good $$. Many pharma/science-based companies primarily hire patent lawyers who worked in technical fields first. One other benefit of this approach is one can usually save enough money to pay for law school, if one isn't profligate in spending.

 

[Retired711]

Again it would depend, working for a state/federal agency can be less exhausting. Sometimes they can be considered practice, sometimes not. A lot of variations.

Even the less exhausting jobs often amount to practice, as in the case of my friend and countless other lawyers in state and federal agencies. One can be practicing law even while knowing you will be home for dinner. In my experience, most jobs for lawyers constitute practice in the traditional sense.

 

[Knight Shift]

Only time I ever liked school.

Law school was a party compared to engineering school, which was torture.

 

[Knight Shift]

One other thing with regard to patent law, especially since the grandson graduated with an eng'g degree from Purdue, which has a very good eng'g school: given that, he might want to strongly consider putting law school off for a few years and working in the eng'g field to hone his technical chops, which will absolutely make him a better patent lawyer in a highly technical field. I had several colleagues at Merck, who spent 4-6 years doing eng'g/science work and then went to law school, becoming patent lawyers, who then were hired into Pharma as patent lawyers, making pretty good $$. Many pharma/science-based companies primarily hire patent lawyers who worked in technical fields first. One other benefit of this approach is one can usually save enough money to pay for law school, if one isn't profligate in spending.

Very true and good advice. However, I have worked with quite a few attorneys who had on technical experience who are excellent patent attorneys. Probably less important for mechanical, electrical and computer disciplines. But for pharma, biopharma and biotech, many companies want their patent attorneys to not only have a PhD, but bench/career experience too.

 

[RU848789]

Law school was a party compared to engineering school, which was torture.

Funny, I thought eng'g school was a party, lol...

 

[RUinBoston]

Does the same advice apply to undergrad choice ? Go to the most reputable school you can and future income will eventually justify the higher tuition ?

Only if you are interested in going into certain fields (like finance), or moving on to law/med school. Remember, no matter how big the firm, law is a customer direct business. You can blame the firms or whatever you want, but the the simple fact is the 'customer' is always going to be willing to pay a lot more for a Harvard guy on his matter than a non-ivy guy. The big firms hire Harvard guys cuz they can sell Harvard guys to the customer and bill $$$$$$$ for them.

 

[Agoodnap_rivals91099]

A 168 LSAT with an engineering undergrad will get him into most law schools. If he knows where he'd like to live than a good regional school may be the right choice. My son got a 163 LSAT and went to Temple with a full academic ride plus $2K stipend plus borrowed about $35K for living expenses during his three years. He graduated (2020) in the top 5% of the class and was offered and accepted a Federal clerkship as his first job making about $72K/year. For those not familiar, a federal clerkship is a one year assignment but is a key that opens many doors. During that first year he decided to give big law a shot and is now making over $200K/year moving in to his second year at the firm. Big law money is nice, but the first 8 months he was billing 220 - 240 hours per month which consumed his entire life. He then figured out which partners to work with and which to avoid and his life is much better.

He has two good buddies that also graduated law school in 2020. One of them went to NYU and the other to Georgetown. They each started at big law firms right after graduation and each of them lasted about 6 months. The NYU grad moved to Philadelphia and found an in-house job making about $75K and he's happy as heck. The Georgetown grad bought a property and opened a small convenience shop selling beer/soda/water, sandwiches, snacks, etc. in Ocean City Md and is loving life. However, both of these guys have over $300K of debt that is hanging over their heads.

 

[Retired711]

A 168 LSAT with an engineering undergrad will get him into most law schools. If he knows where he'd like to live than a good regional school may be the right choice. My son got a 163 LSAT and went to Temple with a full academic ride plus $2K stipend plus borrowed about $35K for living expenses during his three years. He graduated (2020) in the top 5% of the class and was offered and accepted a Federal clerkship as his first job making about $72K/year. For those not familiar, a federal clerkship is a one year assignment but is a key that opens many doors. During that first year he decided to give big law a shot and is now making over $200K/year moving in to his second year at the firm. Big law money is nice, but the first 8 months he was billing 220 - 240 hours per month which consumed his entire life. He than figured out which partners to work with and which to avoid and his life is much better.

He has two good buddies that also graduated law school in 2020. One of them went to NYU and the other to Georgetown. They each started at big law firms right after graduation and each of them lasted about 6 months. The NYU grad moved to Philadelphia and found an in-house job making about $75K and he's happy as heck. The Georgetown grad bought a property and opened a small convenience shop selling beer/soda/water, sandwiches, snacks, etc. in Ocean City Md and is loving life. However, both of these guys have over $300K of debt that is hanging over their heads.

Excellent post. I don't know whether your son is a New Jersey resident, so this may not be relevant to you, but I'll say it anyway: Temple Law will undercut Rutgers tuition (yes, even Rutgers in-state tuition) for New Jersey residents that have LSATs in the range of your son's. To quote a Rutgers law admissions officer, "we can't compete with that." The result is that Temple's 25-75 LSAT range is 160-165, as compared to Rutgers' 155-160.

 

[iReC89]

Again thanks to everyone above. While it is up to him to make the decisions, I do relay what info I receive. He is a Nj resident, and RU is one of the schools he is interested in. He is scheduled to graduate from Purdue, with a degree in aeronautical eng., a field he would like to get into, on the legal side.

A degree from a lower school can be more valuable if it is in the geographic market he wants to work in. Consider schools close to aeronautical industry suppliers, particularly if he is interested in in house work. That said, I would expect he will get a nice offer from RU with that score. I have not seen Camden but the Newark campus is nice. Sounds like Knight Shift made a nice offer to talk about patent law.

 

[Retired711]

A degree from a lower school can be more valuable if it is in the geographic market he wants to work in. Consider schools close to aeronautical industry suppliers, particularly if he is interested in in house work. That said, I would expect he will get a nice offer from RU with that score. I have not seen Camden but the Newark campus is nice. Sounds like Knight Shift made a nice offer to talk about patent law.

It's more valuable in that it's easier to job hunt where your law school is. But you have to be really sure where you want to live for that to be a factor in picking a less prestigious school.

 

[koolraddad]

A 168 LSAT with an engineering undergrad will get him into most law schools. If he knows where he'd like to live than a good regional school may be the right choice. My son got a 163 LSAT and went to Temple with a full academic ride plus $2K stipend plus borrowed about $35K for living expenses during his three years. He graduated (2020) in the top 5% of the class and was offered and accepted a Federal clerkship as his first job making about $72K/year. For those not familiar, a federal clerkship is a one year assignment but is a key that opens many doors. During that first year he decided to give big law a shot and is now making over $200K/year moving in to his second year at the firm. Big law money is nice, but the first 8 months he was billing 220 - 240 hours per month which consumed his entire life. He than figured out which partners to work with and which to avoid and his life is much better.

He has two good buddies that also graduated law school in 2020. One of them went to NYU and the other to Georgetown. They each started at big law firms right after graduation and each of them lasted about 6 months. The NYU grad moved to Philadelphia and found an in-house job making about $75K and he's happy as heck. The Georgetown grad bought a property and opened a small convenience shop selling beer/soda/water, sandwiches, snacks, etc. in Ocean City Md and is loving life. However, both of these guys have over $300K of debt that is hanging over their heads.

This would make for a great Netflix series. Oh wait, I think it has been done before. You have to want to be at a big firm. With all the discussion, one thing is certain, there is no right answer. I packed up and moved to Oklahoma, at least during the Barry Switzer years, I have some great stories. Small school, middle of nowhere and 30 plus years later, I love my life. I can't think of anything to do differently.

 

[irishflu]

Your grandson needs to figure out the following:

- does he want to take out loans or walk out of law school with minimal debt

- where would he prefer to be geographically.. for the top 10-15 law schools, it doesn’t matter but if you are thinking beyond that then geography becomes a bigger issue

then he can start making a list of where to apply.

This is good advice.

I had to decide between Rutgers Law School in Newark and Seton Hall. I wanted a local school because I wanted to stay in NJ and thought that would be my best option (not necessarily true; NJ firms recruit from good schools all over). I chose Rutgers because it was about 1/4 the price of SHU. Both were comparably ranked. I graduated with no debt. I know lawyers who graduated from SHU 10+ years ago who are still repaying large student loans. Firms will find good students, even if they are not at the best law schools. Really, a law school degree is most important for the first job; after that, job opportunities are based on reputation, skill, experience, etc. (with exceptions for the elite schools like Harvard, etc.).

But, my strongest advice would be to weigh very carefully whether law school truly is the best option for him. I'm lucky, but I know plenty of miserable, stressed lawyers.

 

[Shelby65]

Only if you are interested in going into certain fields (like finance), or moving on to law/med school. Remember, no matter how big the firm, law is a customer direct business. You can blame the firms or whatever you want, but the the simple fact is the 'customer' is always going to be willing to pay a lot more for a Harvard guy on his matter than a non-ivy guy. The big firms hire Harvard guys cuz they can sell Harvard guys to the customer and bill $$$$$$$ for them.

Hey that sounds very logical. So why do many very smart people in humanities, science etc go to the ivies, Stanford, MIT etc rather than less expensive schools ?

Only for ego and prestige ?

 

[Retired711]

Hey that sounds very logical. So why do many very smart people in humanities, science etc go to the ivies, Stanford, MIT etc rather than less expensive schools ?

Only for ego and prestige ?

Because a Harvard or Stanford or MIT degree is an excellent credential that shows any potential employer you're smart. In addition, being at a school like that helps you make contacts, even among your fellow students, that help a lot in later life.

 

[Retired711]

I would guess the biggest feeder school for Rutgers Law is Rutgers-NB so I am not sure that is correct. I know a lot of people that went to law school there and many went to RU-NB or peer schools (which i would consider Purdue to be).

I've never seen a breakdown, but I do not think that Rutgers-NB is the biggest feeder school for Rutgers Law -- and if it is, it accounts for a fairly small minority of students.