14-7

rubjk

All-Conference
Dec 16, 2013
2,282
4,906
113
Umass game similar to Minnesota in many ways

Why were UMass and Minny so comfortable shooting from the perimeter

Some people say our defense was solid enough yesterday and Minny just made ridiculous shots. I think our defensive presence was trash

Why did we have severe 5-6 minutes dreadful offensive play in each in the 2nd half
We have had quite a few games like this over the last few years. The team without the home crowd energy just goes through the motions. I wish I knew how to solve it.

I do wonder why we don’t drive more to the basket and draw some fouls in these situations, especially against smaller teams.
 

fluoxetine

Heisman
Nov 11, 2012
23,529
16,898
0
We have a pretty good sample of what this team will give is on the road
7 games is an absolutely tiny sample. Here are two other 7 game samples from our season:

Sample #1 (Yay we're a top 15 team)
vs Central Connecticut W 79-48
vs Michigan W 75-67
vs Nebraska W 93-65
vs Purdue W 70-68
vs Clemson W 74-64
at Maryland W 70-59
vs Iowa W 48-46

Sample #2 (****, we're as bad as Jordan's last year)
at Illinois L 51-86
vs Lafayette L 51-53
vs Lehigh W 73-70 OT
at Penn St L 49-66
vs NJIT W 75-61
vs Maine W 80-64
at Seton Hall L 63-77
 

fluoxetine

Heisman
Nov 11, 2012
23,529
16,898
0

bac2therac

Hall of Famer
Jul 30, 2001
247,822
177,497
113
Flux...Lol keep thinking we played good D.

Did we do anything to deny Willis the ball..did we double team..did we press..did we make any adjustments..did we disrupt..did we harrass

Even the analysts called us out

Our gameplan was a failure and our defense was trash yesterday
 

bac2therac

Hall of Famer
Jul 30, 2001
247,822
177,497
113
7 games is an absolutely tiny sample. Here are two other 7 game samples from our season:

Sample #1 (Yay we're a top 15 team)
vs Central Connecticut W 79-48
vs Michigan W 75-67
vs Nebraska W 93-65
vs Purdue W 70-68
vs Clemson W 74-64
at Maryland W 70-59
vs Iowa W 48-46

Sample #2 (****, we're as bad as Jordan's last year)
at Illinois L 51-86
vs Lafayette L 51-53
vs Lehigh W 73-70 OT
at Penn St L 49-66
vs NJIT W 75-61
vs Maine W 80-64
at Seton Hall L 63-77

???

7 game sample of road games is pretty large
 
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RUsojo

Heisman
Dec 17, 2010
29,436
28,578
113
It was clear in December this teams stretch assignment was trying to get to an overall .500 record.

Everyone needed to get the previous two seasons out of their head that team was no longer here after the offseason.

There is still a chance but they’re gonna have to really dial in. If they can do that without much to play for I give them some credit for that.
 

fluoxetine

Heisman
Nov 11, 2012
23,529
16,898
0
Flux...Lol keep thinking we played good D.

Did we do anything to deny Willis the ball..did we double team..did we press..did we make any adjustments..did we disrupt..did we harrass

Even the analysts called us out

Our gameplan was a failure and our defense was trash yesterday

Do you have any answer for this or no?

???

7 game sample of road games is pretty large
A 7 game sample of anything is not large.
 

MADHAT1

Heisman
Apr 1, 2003
31,466
16,290
113
This team has the ability to amaze at times and then disappoint the next game.
if the amazing team shows up the next 3 games, Zap and RU fans will see a 14-7 RU MBB
team playing MSU in East Lansing on Feb 5th
I won't expect this team to win any game before it's played, but won't discount how they suprise at times and get wins because they play way better than we expect them to
 

goru7

All-American
Dec 12, 2005
6,432
7,710
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We are tremendously inconsistent and there are enough games to come to that conclusion. We also play to the name on the front of the jersey and get up more for so called better teams and not so much for so so teams. Some of the road starts at Maryland at Minnesota at Illinois and at Penn State have been terrible , so that is one thing that Pike has to fix. Pressing or half court press might get them in the flow earlier and I would think that is one thing that can get tried. He also might make an all out effort to get out and run for the first 5 minutes before he settles into a half court game. But it is clear a different start is necessary.

You can make an argument that the remaining home slate of Maryland Michigan State , Ohio State , Illinois , Wisconsin and Penn State is harder than the remaining road trips to Nebraska , Northwestern , Wisconsin , Purdue , Michigan and Indiana. But we will get up for the tougher opponents so I still have a lot of confidence we can get the home games and Penn State is senior day. We have winning streaks against Purdue and Indiana 4-5 each , we match up well with Wisconsin , we have seen Michigan . So getting the team to come out ready against Nebraska and Northwestern so we can withstand one of the runs later on is crucial . This team is still capable and the opportunity is right in front of them despite the early losses.
 

fluoxetine

Heisman
Nov 11, 2012
23,529
16,898
0
Why would i care what kenpom has to say
Well, because it proves mathematically that you are wrong. But you do have a track record of not caring about little things like that so I guess I wouldn't really expect you to care.
 

biazza38

Heisman
Nov 18, 2012
14,432
17,487
81
This team is mediocre. No other way to say it.
Yesterday was an awful game plan.
I also find it very very unnerving that we played a team with their two top big men out, and we couldn't take advantage of that.
Imagine if we didn't have Cliff and Harper for a game. Who's giving us 80 minutes at the 5 and the 4? How much of a disaster would that be?
It still bother me how awful yesterday was.
We did nothing to get them out of their comfort zone on offense.
Minnesota came in with a game plan where they decided they were going to limit the number of possessions.
My favorite part was all the fans here saying "Minnesota is hot right now. Don't worry, they'll cool off." Not if you don't do anything about it.
 

goru7

All-American
Dec 12, 2005
6,432
7,710
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The bigger issue is our 3 point defense. I know that link cited that it can hardly be affected but our games provide an opposite conclusion.
Our wins against Clemson (4-18) ; Purdue (7-26); Michigan (3-15); Nebraska (6-18); Maryland (6-25); Iowa(6-27) included the other team missing some wide open looks but it at least appeared to me that our defense affected the other team enough to cause that % especially against Iowa , Purdue and Michigan , where close outs and shot clock violations were plentiful. In the above games we were 7-19;7-14; 11-23;10-18;10-22;2-13. Only Iowa which was a super human defense effort but also with us hitting 2-13 was the only game we did not outshoot our opponents from 3. But giving up no more than 6-7 threes seems like a winning formula.

However , not the only main factor in wins and losses, as we lost at Seton Hall and Penn State giving up 5-21 and 6-18 but only had 4-18 and 5-19. Both those 2 games we simply did not play well overall, shooting , on the glass and turnovers galore . Bad starts did not help.

The other losses to DePaul and Minnesota the 3 point stats were close with DePaul 9-24 and we fouled a3 point shooter making it worse but we shot 10-27 and yesterday’s Minnesota game they shot 13-24 and we shot 12-27 . Both games came down to the wire that we came up short but cannot say we played bad and definitely did not play bad for the road. You could argue DePaul hitting those 5 threes late and Minnesota hitting a ton of 3’s late in the shot clock and reasonably defended , was just bad luck.

That leaves UMASS and Lafayette. UMASS was 16-32 and also fouled a few times and converted 5-6 foul shots so 54 points and we were 3-13. We were outscored 54-9 from 3 and their foul shots . We blew 15-17 point leads in both halves. Should never have happened that we played such bad defense and blown those leads but you cannot say we didn’t play a good road game.
Lafayette was (7-18)but was fouled 3 times and made 8-9 foul shots so really 10-18 to our 4-26.
Both losses on a last second three , luck or bad defense or both. Yes plenty of things we didn’t do before the last shots to win the game easily but still games where we gave up too many threes with not great defense. Illinois was never a game and I am excluding that game but very optimistic we will beat them at home.

7 losses and 4 of the losses either lousy 3 point defense or just bad luck and other than Lafayette where we were atrocious the other 3 road game losses we did not play bad on the road but our defense was not its nasty self. 2 of the losses we did not play well overall at Seton Hall and at Penn State and still had our chances with 5 minutes to go and came up short . Illinois a no show. We are 11-7 but 3-4 more wins right there coming down to last possession .

Overall , Pike has to get the team to either give up no more than 6 or 7 threes home and away and we will likely win 80% of our remaining games.
 
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RUChoppin

Heisman
Dec 1, 2006
19,270
13,695
0

Do you have any answer for this or no?


A 7 game sample of anything is not large.

I'll bite.

From the other kenpom article you posted in the game thread: "With few exceptions, the best measure of three-point defense is a team’s ability to keep the opponents from taking 3’s"

Willis had a career high in 3PA. How well did we do denying him the ball, especially late in the clock when they were desperate and needed a 3PA?

Minnesota had the 4th highest 3PA of their season with 24 (above the 19.2/g they averaged in conference play coming into our contest), and they were missing Battle and Stephens, who average 10 3PA/g (more than half of their team average).

They also usually shoot a .333 3PAr, and but against us it was .500

I think by kenpom's "best measure of of three-point defense", we didn't do very well at all.
 
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fluoxetine

Heisman
Nov 11, 2012
23,529
16,898
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The bigger issue is our 3 point defense. I know that link cited that it can hardly be affected but our games provide an opposite conclusion.
Our wins against Clemson (4-18) ; Purdue (7-26); Michigan (3-15); Nebraska (6-18); Maryland (6-25); Iowa(6-27) included the other team missing some wide open looks but it at least appeared to me that our defense affected the other team enough to cause that % especially against Iowa , Purdue and Michigan , where close outs and shot clock violations were plentiful. In the above games we were 7-19;7-14; 11-23;10-18;10-22;2-13. Only Iowa which was a super human defense effort but also with us hitting 2-13 was the only game we did not outshoot our opponents from 3. But giving up no more than 6-7 threes seems like a winning formula.

However , not the only main factor in wins and losses, as we lost at Seton Hall and Penn State giving up 5-21 and 6-18 but only had 4-18 and 5-19. Both those 2 games we simply did not play well overall, shooting , on the glass and turnovers galore . Bad starts did not help.

The other losses to DePaul and Minnesota the 3 point stats were close with DePaul 9-24 and we fouled a3 point shooter making it worse but we shot 10-27 and yesterday’s Minnesota game they shot 13-24 and we shot 12-27 . Both games came down to the wire that we came up short but cannot say we played bad and definitely did not play bad for the road. You could argue DePaul hitting those 5 threes late and Minnesota hitting a ton of 3’s late in the shot clock and reasonably defended , was just bad luck.

That leaves UMASS and Lafayette. UMASS was 16-32 and also fouled a few times and converted 5-6 foul shots so 54 points and we were 3-13. We were outscored 54-9 from 3 and their foul shots . We blew 15-17 point leads in both halves. Should never have happened that we played such bad defense and blown those leads but you cannot say we didn’t play a good road game.
Lafayette was (7-18)but was fouled 3 times and made 8-9 foul shots so really 10-18 to our 4-26.
Both losses on a last second three , luck or bad defense or both. Yes plenty of things we didn’t do before the last shots to win the game easily but still games where we gave up too many threes with not great defense. Illinois was never a game and I am excluding that game but very optimistic we will beat them at home.

7 losses and 4 of the losses either lousy 3 point defense or just bad luck and other than Lafayette where we were atrocious the other 3 road game losses we did not play bad on the road but our defense was not its nasty self. 2 of the losses we did not play well overall at Seton Hall and at Penn State and still had our chances with 5 minutes to go and came up short . Illinois a no show. We are 11-7 but 3-4 more wins right there coming down to last possession .

Overall , Pike has to get the team to either give up no more than 6 or 7 threes home and away and we will likely win 80% of our remaining games.
There is a lot here to try to respond to point by point, but pointing out that we are less likely to win when the opponent makes a high percentage of threes is not an argument that we can influence that much.

to be clear, the defensive impact is not literally zero, and the factors you cite (forcing people into end of shot clock heaves) are one obvious way that a defense can impact 3p%

But outside of end of shot clock heaves, a couple things are true
(1) people generally don’t take threes unless they are at least somewhat open
(2) there is not that big a difference in make percentage between a slightly contested look vs a wide open look

If you dig further into the data here, what you’ll find is that how many three pointers you allow your opponent to take is a much better measure of “3 point defense” than their actual make percentage is. So using the UMass game as an example, the fact that we let them get up 32 threes is a red flag. The fact that they made 16 of them instead of a more normal 10-11 is mostly luck.

Fouling on three pointers is sort of a separate issue. It’s obviously bad three point defense but it doesn’t show up in 3p%
 

fluoxetine

Heisman
Nov 11, 2012
23,529
16,898
0
I'll bite.

From the other kenpom article you posted in the game thread: "With few exceptions, the best measure of three-point defense is a team’s ability to keep the opponents from taking 3’s"

Willis had a career high in 3PA. How well did we do denying him the ball, especially late in the clock when they were desperate and needed a 3PA?

Minnesota had the 4th highest 3PA of their season with 24 (above the 19.2/g they averaged in conference play coming into our contest), and they were missing Battle and Stephens, who average 10 3PA/g (more than half of their team average).

They also usually shoot a .333 3PAr, and but against us it was .500

I think by kenpom's "best measure of of three-point defense", we didn't do very well at all.
Ha, good timing. Yes I agree with you, though I still think in this game in particular he jacked up a lot of them that would not really be considered good shots. But in general, yes.
 
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RUChoppin

Heisman
Dec 1, 2006
19,270
13,695
0
I think Pike's gameplan was to force more 3PA, rather than less. Missing their distance threats in Battle/Stephens, the staff probably figured that it'd be better to protect the paint and force the Gophers to shoot from outside... and we did a great job limiting their shots inside the arc. Didn't end up working out for us, though, as they got hot from deep.... but that means the defensive strategy has to adapt.
 
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goru7

All-American
Dec 12, 2005
6,432
7,710
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There is a lot here to try to respond to point by point, but pointing out that we are less likely to win when the opponent makes a high percentage of threes is not an argument that we can influence that much.

to be clear, the defensive impact is not literally zero, and the factors you cite (forcing people into end of shot clock heaves) are one obvious way that a defense can impact 3p%

But outside of end of shot clock heaves, a couple things are true
(1) people generally don’t take threes unless they are at least somewhat open
(2) there is not that big a difference in make percentage between a slightly contested look vs a wide open look

If you dig further into the data here, what you’ll find is that how many three pointers you allow your opponent to take is a much better measure of “3 point defense” than their actual make percentage is. So using the UMass game as an example, the fact that we let them get up 32 threes is a red flag. The fact that they made 16 of them instead of a more normal 10-11 is mostly luck.

Fouling on three pointers is sort of a separate issue. It’s obviously bad three point defense but it doesn’t show up in 3p%
All good points but it appears pretty obvious in 80% of our games ( except Seton Hall and Penn State ) our 3 point defense when we close out or cause shot clock violations , we likely win. Your point about attempts does not wash as Purdue was 7-26, Maryland 6-25 and Iowa was 6-27. Our defense caused a ton of that. You cite UMASS at 32 as a red flag but these 3 above offers a different conclusion. UMASS outscoring us 48(54 with fouls on 3) to 9 is the biggest red flag. Some were from way down town but a lot uncontested.
 

goru7

All-American
Dec 12, 2005
6,432
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I think Pike's gameplan was to force more 3PA, rather than less. Missing their distance threats in Battle/Stephens, the staff probably figured that it'd be better to protect the paint and force the Gophers to shoot from outside... and we did a great job limiting their shots inside the arc. Didn't end up working out for us, though, as they got hot from deep.... but that means the defensive strategy has to adapt.
He gambled that they wouldn’t continue to hit those shots and his gamble did not pay off. That is the only way to justify why he did not press , trap or do anything to change tempo of the game where Minnesota was happy walking the ball up and taking almost 30 seconds to shoot on every possession and hit 6-8 of them at the buzzer or with 2 on the clock.
 

biazza38

Heisman
Nov 18, 2012
14,432
17,487
81
I think Pike's gameplan was to force more 3PA, rather than less. Missing their distance threats in Battle/Stephens, the staff probably figured that it'd be better to protect the paint and force the Gophers to shoot from outside... and we did a great job limiting their shots inside the arc. Didn't end up working out for us, though, as they got hot from deep.... but that means the defensive strategy has to adapt.
That’s my biggest problem. It looked like we didn’t change anything
 

fluoxetine

Heisman
Nov 11, 2012
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That’s my biggest problem. It looked like we didn’t change anything
Changing your strategy because someone hits 5 three pointers in a row is actually bad. If the gameplan to let him shoot made sense at 11:45am yesterday, it still made sense at 1:30pm yesterday.
 

biazza38

Heisman
Nov 18, 2012
14,432
17,487
81
Changing your strategy because someone hits 5 three pointers in a row is actually bad. If the gameplan to let him shoot made sense at 11:45am yesterday, it still made sense at 1:30pm yesterday.
Lol no, no it doesn’t.
 

biazza38

Heisman
Nov 18, 2012
14,432
17,487
81
Yes, yes it does. You people just have no concept of even the most basic ideas of probability.
Basketball is not a game of probability. That’s not how this crap works.
yesterday was an example of insanity. You’re so off basis by referencing probability.
 
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fluoxetine

Heisman
Nov 11, 2012
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Basketball is not a game of probability.
Lol.

I have no words, friend, but I assure you the entire sports landscape in the modern era is run by people who understand this stuff. People with your mentality did have their heyday, up until the point where they got absolutely embarrassed by people who were smarter.
 

biazza38

Heisman
Nov 18, 2012
14,432
17,487
81
Lol.

I have no words, friend, but I assure you the entire sports landscape in the modern era is run by people who understand this stuff. People with your mentality did have their heyday, up until the point where they got absolutely embarrassed by people who were smarter.
Dude, you have to make an adjustment. Jesus Christ, stfu. We made zero adjustments and we lost. Yet, you’re somehow taking the side of not make an adjustment.
 

fluoxetine

Heisman
Nov 11, 2012
23,529
16,898
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Dude, you have to make an adjustment. Jesus Christ, stfu. We made zero adjustments and we lost. Yet, you’re somehow taking the side of not make an adjustment.
Adjustments to extremely short term trends are overrated and often counterproductive.