Stop self-medicating, morons!

[Raven Shaddock]

Indeed. Coronavirus is terrifying and there isn't a good, carefree solution to dealing with it.

This truly is going to be a case of walking a tight-rope and/or threading the needle.

We can't dismiss the Coronavirus too early. That will cost lives. That is what the next 2-4 weeks should be for ... and 2 weeks may be too ambitious, but time will tell.

We also can't allow the precaution to serve as the Trojan Horse to invite FAR LARGER threats to our society that will then be thrust upon us and cost lives and fatalities that CV could not even dream of causing.

It's not an easy task ... and even though I didn't vote for his bombastic, orange ***, I'm a tad more comfortable with him at the helm instead of some cackling hen in a pantsuit or some dog-faced pony soldier who's halfway through his maiden voyage into Alzheimer's.

 

[eerdoc]

They aren't "two different things." I think you mean that hydroxychloroquine is derived from chloroquine and are different chemicals. They are very similar and are used for the same indications. But the woman said later when interviewed that she got the idea from hearing the president speak about the drug. Trump did mention chloroquine (along with hydroxychloroquine) as being the cure. The husband thought that taking a teaspoonful of the tank cleaner would be a good idea. Turns out that a teaspoonful of the tank cleaner contained a lethal dose of the drug.

So did Trump tell these people to consume aquarium cleaner and is, thus, directly at fault? No. Are these people idiots? Yes. Should Trump, with his laymen at best knowledge of pharmacology, go on stage and proclaim that a drug that has very little evidence from a very small case study is a miracle cure? No, because stupid people will do things like this.

If nothing else the coronavirus calamity has shown one thing to me. It's that an alarmingly high percentage of humans will talk out of their *** about subjects they know absolutely nothing about with such conviction that they actually know what they are talking about. The media does it (Fox News, MSNBC, and, to a lesser extent, the non crazy media). The president does it. Random idiots on Twitter do it.

I wish everyone would just shut the hell up and listen to experts. It's classic Dunning-Kruger effect in action.

And everyone seems to be permanently stuck on naively confident 24/7.

Edit: rewrote the first paragraph to lower confusion as to what I meant.

I learned during my career when dealing with people very well educated in their own, often quite limited, niche that they would demand something be done to provide information they deemed necessary and would argue that "ALL you have to do is....This led me to conclude that "EVERYTHING in this World is SIMPLE----so long as you know NOTHING about it"!

GREAT post, BTW.

 

[Raven Shaddock]

Allow me to give you an example of what I was talking about above.

And imagine this 22 weeks from now.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/finance/m...ard-food-threatening-global-trade/ar-BB11EY3M

 

[WVex-pat in GA]

I think the confusion here is that you think when I typed "they aren't two different things" I didn't mean that hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine aren't two different things. I meant that the tank cleaner and one of the two medications the president mentioned aren't two different things. They both contain chloroquine. Hence..."they aren't two different things." That and that the president really did mention chloroquine several times, which you seem to fail to acknowledge.

You know, I understood this in your discussion from the get go and "in every shape, form and fashion." Not sure why some seem to have an agenda.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Allow me to give you an example of what I was talking about above.

And imagine this 22 weeks from now.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/finance/m...ard-food-threatening-global-trade/ar-BB11EY3M

According to the article, the US is a net exporter of food. So I'd imagine we'd be okay in that regard. I'm more afraid of idiots hoarding than running out of food.

 

[Raven Shaddock]

According to the article, the US is a net exporter of food. So I'd imagine we'd be okay in that regard. I'm more afraid of idiots hoarding than running out of food.

Considering we're already about 3 weeks into this, that brings a shutdown of America to HALF A YEAR.

Let that sink in.

Additionally, you've even had "medical professionals" and folks in the media (who have their own click-bait agenda), give us this outlandish 15 MONTHS warning. "This self-quarantining will have to go on for the next 15 months."

Son, this country would be in dire straits within 15 weeks. 15 months?

These people are batshit.

Hell, the "ride it out until mid-Summer" folks are batshit.

Is this still raging in 2-4 weeks? It likely is within New York and other hot spots. But to avoid a calamity not yet seen, you're gonna have to aggressively tackle this a couple/few more weeks and then rely upon herd immunity to serve as your least risky proposition ... and at this point, it is.

You can't huddle in place in paralyzing fear for 15-23 weeks ... let alone 15 months.

By that time, you will have legitimate boogeymen crash the party and there will be no vaccines for what they bring with them.

 

[WVex-pat in GA]

According to the article, the US is a net exporter of food. So I'd imagine we'd be okay in that regard. I'm more afraid of idiots hoarding than running out of food.

Got plenty of food... and toilet paper; haven't needed to go out for anything like that. Did make a run yesterday for 2 cases of prosecco, 3 cases of chardonnay, an extra case of beer and some iced tea. Oh... and those 2 slabs of St. Louis style ribs at Costco just looked too good to pass up, so I guess I did buy some food. That's what happens going to Costco hungry without the free samples.

 

[Raven Shaddock]

Got plenty of food... and toilet paper; haven't needed to go out for anything like that. Did make a run yesterday for 2 cases of prosecco, 3 cases of chardonnay, an extra case of beer and some iced tea. Oh... and those 2 slabs of St. Louis style ribs at Costco just looked too good to pass up, so I guess I did buy some food. That's what happens going to Costco hungry without the free samples.

Love me some ribs. Excellent choice in "prepper food".

You have good taste.

Add some shrimp to that .. little surf & turf.

 

[Mitch D.]

Who are you talking to? This was one idiot couple in Arizona.

Overreact much?

 

[CAJUNEER_rivals]

They aren't "two different things." I think you mean that hydroxychloroquine is derived from chloroquine and are different chemicals. They are very similar and are used for the same indications. But the woman said later when interviewed that she got the idea from hearing the president speak about the drug. Trump did mention chloroquine (along with hydroxychloroquine) as being the cure. The husband thought that taking a teaspoonful of the tank cleaner would be a good idea. Turns out that a teaspoonful of the tank cleaner contained a lethal dose of the drug.

So did Trump tell these people to consume aquarium cleaner and is, thus, directly at fault? No. Are these people idiots? Yes. Should Trump, with his laymen at best knowledge of pharmacology, go on stage and proclaim that a drug that has very little evidence from a very small case study is a miracle cure? No, because stupid people will do things like this.

If nothing else the coronavirus calamity has shown one thing to me. It's that an alarmingly high percentage of humans will talk out of their *** about subjects they know absolutely nothing about with such conviction that they actually know what they are talking about. The media does it (Fox News, MSNBC, and, to a lesser extent, the non crazy media). The president does it. Random idiots on Twitter do it.

I wish everyone would just shut the hell up and listen to experts. It's classic Dunning-Kruger effect in action.

And everyone seems to be permanently stuck on naively confident 24/7.

Edit: rewrote the first paragraph to lower confusion as to what I meant.

Trump didn’t say it’s a miracle cure. He didn’t say that at all. He said he’s hopeful but we have to wait on the studies. Pence said the same thing. Neither got into the science of the medicine. The FDA already approved hydroxychloroquine for off label use. Pence did mention that. Neither Trump nor Pence were reckless with their words. The topic first came up because Dr. Fauci was asked about it at a brief by a journalist.

 

[WVex-pat in GA]

Love me some ribs. Excellent choice in "prepper food".

You have good taste.

Add some shrimp to that .. little surf & turf.

Wife is in the seafood business, got probably 125 lbs of seafood in the freezer. Surf & Turf anything is possible at my house.

 

[Raven Shaddock]

Wife is in the seafood business, got probably 125 lbs of seafood in the freezer. Surf & Turf anything is possible at my house.

Excellent.

If society breaks down, I know who I'm looting. [winking]

 

[scotthotshot]

Trump didn’t say it’s a miracle cure. He didn’t say that at all. He said he’s hopeful but we have to wait on the studies. Pence said the same thing. Neither got into the science of the medicine. The FDA already approved hydroxychloroquine for off label use. Pence did mention that. Neither Trump nor Pence were reckless with their words. The topic first came up because Dr. Fauci was asked about it at a brief by a journalist.

If I understand it correctly there is no such thing as FDA approval for off label use

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Trump didn’t say it’s a miracle cure. He didn’t say that at all. He said he’s hopeful but we have to wait on the studies. Pence said the same thing. Neither got into the science of the medicine. The FDA already approved hydroxychloroquine for off label use. Pence did mention that. Neither Trump nor Pence were reckless with their words. The topic first came up because Dr. Fauci was asked about it at a brief by a journalist.

I suppose he didn't say "miracle" exactly. He said that it would have "a real chance to be one of the biggest game changers in the history of medicine."

I suppose "biggest game changers in the history of medicine" that lacks the implied divinity of "miracle." So, point taken.

 

[Clubhound_rivals78060]

It's being used all over the world and NY. Demacrates dont wont it to work. Death is a great political
Tool.

OK to be too sarcastic but SOS Much
Seriously it has been used over the world for Malaria a non viral condition. Secondly and most importantly there has been three count them three trials for the affect of hydroxycolequin in regards to Covid 19 the first was in France and that's the one the President uses for his definitive claim that its a game changer but when looking into the study in depth you will see that out of the 26 people tested, 3 died 18 were negative, 1 left the study to adverse reaction to taking the drug . Now with the second study the one in China was a controlled study which involved just 30 patients. Of the 15 patients given the malaria drug, 13 tested negative for the coronavirus after a week of treatment. Of the 15 patients who didn’t get hydroxychloroquine, 14 tested negative for the virus.



The results of the study weren’t statistically significant.

So until tehre is more robust case studies there is no way you can decide the efficacy of this drug one way or the other

 

[CAJUNEER_rivals]

If I understand it correctly there is no such thing as FDA approval for off label use

It’s my understanding that the FDA can make an off-label approval before all the clinical trial results are submitted of a drug generally considered safe. The approved indications do not change “on the label” until results are submitted and approved.

 

[Raven Shaddock]

It’s my understanding that the FDA can make an off-label approval before all the clinical trial results are submitted of a drug generally considered safe. The approved indications do not change “on the label” until results are submitted and approved.

Nevada's governor just outlawed the use of the drug.

At least that is the initial report.

Crazy times.

 

[CAJUNEER_rivals]

I suppose he didn't say "miracle" exactly. He said that it would have "a real chance to be one of the biggest game changers in the history of medicine."

I suppose "biggest game changers in the history of medicine" that lacks the implied divinity of "miracle." So, point taken.

He also said we’ll have to wait and see. That’s not a point to be overlooked.

 

[Mitch D.]

This truly is going to be a case of walking a tight-rope and/or threading the needle.

We can't dismiss the Coronavirus too early. That will cost lives. That is what the next 2-4 weeks should be for ... and 2 weeks may be too ambitious, but time will tell.

We also can't allow the precaution to serve as the Trojan Horse to invite FAR LARGER threats to our society that will then be thrust upon us and cost lives and fatalities that CV could not even dream of causing.

It's not an easy task ... and even though I didn't vote for his bombastic, orange ***, I'm a tad more comfortable with him at the helm instead of some cackling hen in a pantsuit or some dog-faced pony soldier who's halfway through his maiden voyage into Alzheimer's.

"I'm a tad more comfortable with him at the helm instead of some cackling hen in a pantsuit or some dog-faced pony soldier who's halfway through his maiden voyage into Alzheimer's."

This is gold ^^

 

[Mitch D.]

According to the article, the US is a net exporter of food. So I'd imagine we'd be okay in that regard. I'm more afraid of idiots hoarding than running out of food.

We're a "net exporter" when we're not shutting the entire country down, but do you think these goods will produce themselves?

 

[Airport]

Considering we're already about 3 weeks into this, that brings a shutdown of America to HALF A YEAR.

Let that sink in.

Additionally, you've even had "medical professionals" and folks in the media (who have their own click-bait agenda), give us this outlandish 15 MONTHS warning. "This self-quarantining will have to go on for the next 15 months."

Son, this country would be in dire straits within 15 weeks. 15 months?

These people are batshit.

Hell, the "ride it out until mid-Summer" folks are batshit.

Is this still raging in 2-4 weeks? It likely is within New York and other hot spots. But to avoid a calamity not yet seen, you're gonna have to aggressively tackle this a couple/few more weeks and then rely upon herd immunity to serve as your least risky proposition ... and at this point, it is.

You can't huddle in place in paralyzing fear for 15-23 weeks ... let alone 15 months.

By that time, you will have legitimate boogeymen crash the party and there will be no vaccines for what they bring with them.

15 days and we are going to go crazy

 

[Git-Eeer-Done]

I you were aware of this, why did you tell me "they aren't two different things"?

That is like ordering a fillet and the waiter gives me a NY strip and tell me they are basically the same. I hope a customer doesn't hand you a prescription for X and you give him Y and tell him they are basically the same.

I wonder where you are on the Dunning-Kruger scale.....

So according to our pharmacy expert, if I’m going on a safari and need a anti-malaria drug and head to the CVS, they are going to tell me to down a bottle of aquarium cleaner since it’s basically the same thing.

 

[MikeIII]

Someone should send this thread to that AZ couple to show them how much trouble they've caused.

 

[ThatNehlenFeelin]

15 months? This isn't a nuclear war.

2-3 weeks is enough.

 

[scotthotshot]

It’s my understanding that the FDA can make an off-label approval before all the clinical trial results are submitted of a drug generally considered safe. The approved indications do not change “on the label” until results are submitted and approved.

I could quite possibly be mistaken, but I thought once something was approved by the FDA it was useable for anything else it may also be effective against and did not require additional approval?

 

[WVUALLEN]

Key words in Trump speech on unproven coronavirus drugs are... could be, could have, if that worked, probably ...some overlook those words and see only this will work, we should take it.

"I saw it sitting on the back shelf and thought, 'Hey, isn't that the stuff they're talking about on TV?'" NBC quoted the unnamed woman as saying.

(who the heck says I got me some of that untested hydroxychloroquine I'm going to take it now. Not even knowing what dosage to take or what has been tested with it).

New York is set to begin a clinical trial on Tuesday that would treat patients with hydroxychloroquine taken together with azithromycin, an antibiotic used to clear secondary bacterial infections.

"The hydroxychloroquine and the Z-Pak, I think as a combination probably is looking very, very good," Trump said.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...uld-be-gift-from-god/articleshow/74788234.cms

 

[WVUPharm2007]

So according to our pharmacy expert, if I’m going on a safari and need a anti-malaria drug and head to the CVS, they are going to tell me to down a bottle of aquarium cleaner since it’s basically the same thing.

They won't literally give you aquarium cleaner, but they may give you the same substance that is in it. This is a fact.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

I could quite possibly be mistaken, but I thought once something was approved by the FDA it was useable for anything else it may also be effective against and did not require additional approval?

Fact. Physicians are allowed to prescribe off-label.

 

[EEReverent]

Irony is that Pharm makes post citing Dunning Kruger...then gets hammered by the effect itself from other posters

 

[WVex-pat in GA]

It’s my understanding that the FDA can make an off-label approval before all the clinical trial results are submitted of a drug generally considered safe. The approved indications do not change “on the label” until results are submitted and approved.

Think about what you just posted. If the FDA were to give an "approval" then it is an approved use and not "unapproved or off-label". That's the whole reason for the approval process. Many drugs are used for "unapproved or off-label" purposes; but then they would not be part of the FDA approval process.

https://www.fda.gov/patients/learn-...rstanding-unapproved-use-approved-drugs-label

 

[ThatNehlenFeelin]

Allow me to give you an example of what I was talking about above.

And imagine this 22 weeks from now.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/finance/m...ard-food-threatening-global-trade/ar-BB11EY3M

Most of our produce comes from Mexico or South America...

The Kazakhstan bans will really cripple Asia & Europe. It was the Soviet Union's source of much of it's food.

 

[WVex-pat in GA]

If I understand it correctly there is no such thing as FDA approval for off label use

CORRECT!

 

[WVUPharm2007]

We're a "net exporter" when we're not shutting the entire country down, but do you think these goods will produce themselves?

Of course it doesn't. But food producers are still working as they are essential workers.

 

[WV1863]

Which do you think is the higher number:

The number of people who ingest fish tank cleaner mistakenly believing that it is the same as hydroxychloroquine that MANY governments (not just the one you target) are optimistic about as a COVID-19 treatment

OR

The number of people who refuse to consider taking hydroxychloroquine when a doctor prescribes it because media and OP have sensationalized this particular fish tank story

?

The goal is to save lives. In the long run, your fear mongering here will cost more lives than the number of lives lost to fish tank cleaner.

@WVUPharm2007

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Irony is that Pharm makes post citing Dunning Kruger...then gets hammered by the effect itself from other posters

Please cite examples.

 

[LAMountaineer]

This New York Times article is a perfect example of the lengths the main stream media will go to attach Trump to any and everything bad. He made a statement the drug is a game changer and Trump’s name appears in a story where two Jacka$$es take fish drugs and are hospitalized and one dies. This information was floating around long before the “Loud Mouth” ever opened his mouth.

I'm sorry. But our President has no medical expertise. He should leave all of the medical commentary and advise those medical professionals working beside him. Dr. Fauci had to correct Trump immediately when he made that false claim about this drug. Yes, that "information was floating around long before the "Loud Mouth" ever opened his mouth". But, unfortunately, there are those in this country who still buy whatever that con man is selling. (Like how he claims he is going to save the WV coal industry, when on an international scale coal is a dying energy supply source). In short, yes, that couple were idiots to use that drug. But, the President never should have talked about it when his very own medical advisers cannot and will not recommend it's use yet.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

@WVUPharm2007

Yes?

 

[SacreBleu]

Now, that said, it was reported yesterday that a doctor using it to treat this virus had it work on 350 out of 350 patients.

By a family practitioner.

"Dr. Zelenko is a Lubavitcher Chasid (Jewish mystic sect) who is the primary care provider for most of the Satmar community in Kiryat Joel, N.Y. "

"The Satmar vehemently oppose the state of Israel, viewing it as a blasphemous arrogance -- since it is only the Messiah who is supposed to bring the Jewish nation back from exile to Israel."

Sounds legit.

 

[WVUALLEN]

I'm sorry. But our President has no medical expertise. He should leave all of the medical commentary and advise those medical professionals working beside him. Dr. Fauci had to correct Trump immediately when he made that false claim about this drug. Yes, that "information was floating around long before the "Loud Mouth" ever opened his mouth". But, unfortunately, there are those in this country who still buy whatever that con man is selling. (Like how he claims he is going to save the WV coal industry, when on an international scale coal is a dying energy supply source). In short, yes, that couple were idiots to use that drug. But, the President never should have talked about it when his very own medical advisers cannot and will not recommend it's use yet.

Trump did not recommend it's use. Trump talked about what medical advisers are working on just what he said. Other countries have already tried this. People seem to forget the words could be, maybe hopefully.

 

[EEReverent]

Please cite examples.

All the posts you had to respond to re-explaining your point.