Wilt was just physically dominant. Russell was a much more well-rounded player. They were both great. If you were playing a regular game in January, Wilt was the guy. If you were in the playoffs with a game on the line, Russell was the guy.
Since this horse is still breathing
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Wilt was just physically dominant. Russell was a much more well-rounded player. They were both great. If you were playing a regular game in January, Wilt was the guy. If you were in the playoffs with a game on the line, Russell was the guy.
When did Shaq hold his own against Hakeem? Hard to compare since their primes didn't overlap, but what I remember is Hakeem abusing a young shaq. And Hakeem was a really good defender also, so it wasn't just a matter of both scoring on each other.
Don't really remember what happened as Shaq got into his prime and Hakeem was starting to decline, but I would assume if you put them up against each other in their prime, as athletic as Shaq was, he wouldn't have been able to stop Hakeem from scoring and Hakeem was strong enough that Shaq couldn't have just over powered him. But I was a big Hakeem fan so maybe I'm biased in how I remember them.
Yeah on one hand, I think the sheer size difference they enjoyed had a lot to do with it. I do think both would be at a minimum All Stars in this or any other era.
I don't know if the other sports have such obvious changes as basketball. THe game is just full of freaks now. There was a time where there was a lack of offensive skill and lack of hand checking on defense made it where you could legitimately argue that the current players would be no better if they played in previuos decades. But now, the offensive skill is better and the ability to play zone some what offsets the hand checking argument.
I think if people really looked at football measurables, you'd see a big difference in the average size and athleticism across the board, but it's just not as obvious watching the game as it is in the NBA.
I'm obviously not a big Lebron fan, but he's infinitely more skilled than Malone was. From just a size perspective, yes, they are very similar. I think Malone played with much more toughness, but Lebron is a lot more skilled.
Head to head:
Regular Season
| Player | G | W | L | GS | MP | FG | FGA | FG% | 3P | 3PA | 3P% | FT | FTA | FT% | ORB | DRB | TRB | AST | STL | BLK | TOV | PF | PTS |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Shaquille O'Neal | 20 | 14 | 6 | 20 | 38.7 | 9.3 | 17.0 | .544 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 3.6 | 7.6 | .474 | 3.9 | 8.5 | 12.4 | 3.6 | 0.9 | 1.8 | 3.6 | 3.5 | 22.1 | |
| Hakeem Olajuwon | 20 | 6 | 14 | 19 | 34.8 | 7.4 | 16.5 | .447 | 0.1 | 0.1 | .500 | 3.7 | 4.9 | .753 | 2.7 | 6.5 | 9.1 | 2.9 | 1.4 | 2.4 | 1.9 | 3.8 | 18.4 |
<tbody>
</tbody>
Playoffs
| Player | G | W | L | GS | MP | FG | FGA | FG% | 3P | 3PA | 3P% | FT | FTA | FT% | ORB | DRB | TRB | AST | STL | BLK | TOV | PF | PTS |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Hakeem Olajuwon | 8 | 5 | 3 | 8 | 37.9 | 9.9 | 21.3 | .465 | 0.1 | 0.1 | 1.000 | 3.1 | 4.3 | .735 | 2.0 | 7.4 | 9.4 | 3.0 | 1.6 | 1.4 | 2.0 | 4.5 | 23.0 |
| Shaquille O'Neal | 8 | 3 | 5 | 8 | 42.4 | 11.3 | 20.3 | .556 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 6.3 | 12.4 | .505 | 3.6 | 7.8 | 11.4 | 5.1 | 0.5 | 3.3 | 3.8 | 3.8 | 28.8 |
<tbody>
</tbody>
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.fcgi?id=ygpXX
I actually said that Hakeem held his own against Shaq. Hakeem was three years older, so their primes kinda overlapped. Hakeem played with a better team and saw most of his success when Shaq was younger, but as Shaq got older, he started to dominate. I do think both of them in their primes would be as great of a big man matchup as you would ever see. Shaq has said that early in his career he struggled with Hakeem. I'm a big Hakeem fan too and am not taking anything away from him, but he didn't have the brute strength that Shaq had.
I actually had a debate with a friend last week who said a starting five of Kobe, MJ, Lebron, Kevin Durant, and Shaq would never lose a basketball game, and I countered that I would take Stockton, Magic, Bird, Barkley, and Hakeem and sweep him in the playoffs. It's why these debates are fun because the different eras and styles are such big variables in these discussions.
Did a double take at the 3 years difference remark and was worried my memory was failing. According to the interwebs, Hakeem if 57 and Shaq is 48, so 9 years difference. Going to try to go look at stats and figure out where they were in their career as far as how close they were to their career peaks in pts per game, rebounds per game, etc. when they met, but will probalby be a few days before I can get to it.
I sometimes wonder if certain people possess functioning eyeballs and brains, and if so, are they connected?
Those were absolutely mutha17in flops, whether there was a foul or not, and is another reason Luhbron will never be in my top 5.
To add: if, in this padded, protective, pro-offensive league that insulates elite players like James, why aren't his number substantially better than MJ?
Those were absolutely mutha17in flops, whether there was a foul or not, and is another reason Luhbron will never be in my top 5.
To add: if, in this padded, protective, pro-offensive league that insulates elite players like James, why aren't his number substantially better than MJ?
I disagree.
Even if it is a legitimate foul, flopping is still flopping.
Lebron is a flopper, and that is some p*ssy BS. I wish he wouldn't do that.
Don't get me wrong though . . . Lebron is definitely one of the all-time greats.
(my opinion)
I'm wrong. I was reading an article the other day about this very topic and probably saw it wrong. Hakeem came out the same year Jordan did so I should have known better.
Looking at the details, it looks like Olajuwon was better until he was about 34/35 and Shaq was 25/26, and then Shaq was better and by the time Olajuwon was almost 37 Shaq was a lot better. But based on the stats, Shaq held his own better than I remembered in his early career where he was before his prime and Olajuwon was right at or just past his prime.
LOL, on the George example, it's a foul on Lebron, not George.
Flops are flops, whether you get the call or not. If Lebron is going to be considered the GOAT and the supposedly physicality of his game translates to the physical game of the 80s and early 90s, then you have to account for why he flops around so much in this otherwise finesse era of the NBA. It's been alleged in this thread that Lebron would back down and dunk on Bill Russell. That argument is silly when I can find gifs of him bumping around like a jobber against Hulk Hogan.
I wonder if I can find any gifs of Lebron backing defenders down or going hard to the rim against zone-legal NBA defenses?*****************************************
A fop is when there is barely any or no contact at all, but the player acts like there was contact. In some of Drebin's gifs, LeBron flops. My comment did not include the ones that are obvious flop/acting.
When a screener is moving at you thru the screen, thats a legitimate foul. Its also a move that can cause injury- its a legitimate foul for a legitimate reason.
When a player pushes off to create space, its a legitimate foul because it creates an obvious advantage and is moving someone else from their space.
Selling a legitimate foul is not flopping.
As for your top 5, if they played in the last 30 years, they sold fouls too. Every star has done it since I have been aware of NBA basketball.
Oh, and 'Luhbron' is as childish as 'ole piss'. Do better.
Probably. But let me know if you find a gif of him backing down a hall of fame center and dunking on him.
How many Hall of Fame Centers has he played against? At least, when they were in the prime of their career. Which, that's probably more a comment on that position in the NBA. I can damn sure find some when it's a 6'10 215 lb player, you'd agree?
Regardless, here's a fun one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP3vmRnBZP0
So you're saying he wouldn't be able to back down Bill Russell and dunk on him then?
If you can speculate that Lebron would back down Bill Russell and dunk on him in that era, then I can speculate that Bill Russell would be much bigger than 215 in this era. Which is why statements like your initial one are retarded.
Here's a fun fact for you. Michael Jordan had more than one all-star teammate exactly one season in his career (1993-94 season).
Since you like looking things up, go check out LeBron's list...
This is an underrated comment. The ability to palm the ball dramatically changed the way basketball is played (I'd argue for the better). But a lot of modern players would be turnover machines under the same rules Wilt & Russell played with.
So a rim run down an open lane is the same as backing a center down and dunking on him? Are you serious?
I'm sorry but by insinuating that Lebron is JUST one of the greatest ever and not better than Jordan you are basically spitting in his face and slapping his mom. Please go directly to opinion jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.
Lebron would dunk on Bill Russell like dorn dunking on drebin. Just a complete posterization.
Also, using "retarded" as a pejorative is for pig-ignorant shitheels which aside from basketball, I'd like to think you are not. So give some thought to dropping that one.
Also, using "retarded" as a pejorative is for pig-ignorant shitheels which aside from basketball, I'd like to think you are not. So give some thought to dropping that one.
Hate to break it to you but your team gets swept. Who does Stockton guard? He's giving up 5" to the shortest player on the other squad. I'm as big a fan of Stockton as their is and thought he was a great pure point guard but he can't hang in that game.
He made a career of getting posted up by bigger guards and wound up in the hall of fame and holds the all time NBA record for steals. Many all time great players, like Charles Barkley and David Robinson have called him the greatest point guard in NBA history. Gary Payton said he was the toughest guy to guard and the toughest guy that ever guarded him. He's not particularly memorable because he wasn't flashy. But he can be my point guard anytime.
Plus that other team has five ball hogs on it. That's my main justification. Give me a guy that's one of the best in history at setting up others, and does the dirty work on the defensive end.
I know we have not had sports in a while but not long enough to confuse baseball with football. Padded head to toe? Come on man.
I think the Kobe/MJ/Lebron/Duran/Shaq team has some weaknesses as far as fitting together. If you're going up against another all-time team, not having a point guard can be a problem. Lebron can play point-forward, but I'm not sure having him as a primary ball handler or having no primary ball handler is a good idea. They also don't have anybody great at stretching the floor other than Durant. Shouldn't have that problem with an all time team.
That said, I'm not sure your team can take advantage of their issues. Stockton was good defender and was basically really good at being dirty, but that's still a tall order to expect him to go close to 40 minutes against either Kobe, MJ, or Lebron. They'd beat him to death. And then as good as Barkley was, he was a little short for a PF so I think he might have trouble guarding somebody. Then on offense I'm not sure how well your team fits. You have the opposite problem of two PGs and no real scoring guard. You won't have any problem spacing as Bird and Stockton can keep it spaced and then you have the advantage of Olajuwon and Barkley having no problem shooting out to 18 ft at a high percentage.
I think my team would be Jordan, Lebron, Bird, Olajuwon at the 2-5. Point guard is the hardest spot to fill. I think John Stockton might optimize that team on offense. Not sure he'd be the best fit considering hte need to guard big guards. Magic I think leaves you a little too weak on outside shooting and I think I take Lebron over Magic. Lots of really great big point guards are just a little weak on outside shooting, so players like Jason Kidd or Gary Payton or Westbrook who are still really good offensive players might not be quite as good as Stockton. I was thinking Stockton was a mistake at first but the more I think about it there isn't anybody obviously better, unless you want to take the risk of going without a true point guard and having a Lebron or Pippen as your primary ball handler and then priortizing shooting/scoring at the SF and FP spots. I think I might actually go with something off the wall like James Harden. He's big and a good outside shooter and even though he's a shoot first PG now, he was perfectly fine being third banana behind Durant and Westbrook, so that might work really well. If not that, I might would go the Pippen route, and just count on their athleticism plus the range of Bird and Olajuwon offsetting any weakness from not having a great three point shooter at the 1-3 positions.
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The logic I used was that Magic can play off the ball - and he did at times. I think the other team's construction was my point - they really don't fit together and without a true point guard their offense wouldn't consist of much more than isos. My team has a true point guard that can control pace, three good perimeter shooters, an all-timer at center, and a versatile power forward who hits the boards hard and can play away from the basket. No doubt it's not ideal - but in context of the debate, I think it's better constructed than the other team.
Magic could definitely play off the ball as he could and did play every position on the court. That's part of what made him so great and such a difficult matchup, but at the same time, when you're talking about all time teams, where you are going to end up with a LEbron on the other side of the ball, I'm not sure that's as advantageous as having a person that squarely fits in a defined role and is great at it, even if they're not as versatile.
Just to post it again since I edited after you responded to my post above:
I think my team would be Jordan, Lebron, Bird, Olajuwon at the 2-5. Point guard is the hardest spot to fill. I think John Stockton might optimize that team on offense. Not sure he'd be the best fit considering hte need to guard big guards. Magic I think leaves you a little too weak on outside shooting and I think I take Lebron over Magic. Lots of really great big point guards are just a little weak on outside shooting, so players like Jason Kidd or Gary Payton or Westbrook who are still really good offensive players might not be quite as good as Stockton. I was thinking Stockton was a mistake at first but the more I think about it there isn't anybody obviously better, unless you want to take the risk of going without a true point guard and having a Lebron or Pippen as your primary ball handler and then priortizing shooting/scoring at the SF and FP spots. I think I might actually go with something off the wall like James Harden. He's big and a good outside shooter and even though he's a shoot first PG now, he was perfectly fine being third banana behind Durant and Westbrook, so that might work really well. If not that, I might would go the Pippen route, and just count on their athleticism plus the range of Bird and Olajuwon offsetting any weakness from not having a great three point shooter at the 1-3 positions.
Would love to see Bird defend against King James and get into that head. Speaking of headcases, a focused, pre-hair-dye Dennis Rodman would've taken King James completely out of his game.
That said, Lebron would probably be the best player from the current era to compete with those bruisers. The NBA was just more fun to watch back then.
That said, Lebron would probably be the best player from the current era to compete with those bruisers. The NBA was just more fun to watch back then.
This discussion is too reasonable and friendly. Drebin you're a complete moron for even insinuating...wait what were you saying again? Anyway, Your a dub mass!****
As to the discussion, the ball-hoggish nature of the Kobe, MJ, Lebron team is an issue. The question is could anyone get a clean shot off against them. It might not matter that they can't share.
ive got a whole new respect for the guys that played before the mid 2000's when the NBA and NCAAM went ultra soft. I grew up on that kind of basketball and remember those teams well, but watching the last dance reminded me of how brutal it was back then and how charmin ultra soft the game is now. basketball today is barely watchable. i long for the speed and aggressiveness of yesteryear and those physical matchups were a great game within the game.
Perhaps it is a foul on LeBron, i really cant tell since the gif starts basically right at the point of contact. Or maybe its a foul on George's teammate who is trying to screen James. James draws that contact foul and in turn loses position and fouls George. Who knows- its a gif that shows a second of play.
In the gif, George pushes off. Was James in position already?...i really cant tell.
At best, its a bad example to support your argument.
As for the rest of your post, i have no idea since I dont talk with James and havent seen him answer those questions/observations. Ill give it a whirl though!
- perhaps James is playing to the game. He is a physical beast, but trying to play to the game may be how he is most effective. Thats a pretty damn reasonable guess.
- perhaps if he played in a more physical time, he would use his physicality(hate that word) more often than he already does.
- perhaps this era of the NBA isnt as finesse as you and others claim. Perhaps the perception comes from the lack of actual fights and the deliberate work to reduce fouls that arent a basketball play(throwing a guy down who is going to the rim, for example). Even with those removed, the actual game could be just as physical or even more so when compared to decades past. Screens are illegal probably 85% of the time, where the screener seeks out contact and continues to move. While hand contact on the perimeter has been reduced thru initiative, body contact in the paint is as bruising as ever. So yeah, a defender cant slide under a shooter and take out their ankles now, but that doesnt make the game more finesse based, it just makes it safer.
But really- maybe, just maybe, the best player in the world has adapted his game to fit how the game is being called, so he is 'soft' according to your current argument.
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